Re-wilding

[pcray1231]

And have you seen any kind of extensive re-wilding of landscapes on public lands in PA? If so, where?

Elk, fisher's, otters. Not wolves, but yes, we have re-introduced native species that were exterminated or awfully close to it.

The OP mentions PA wilderness. But does such a thing actually exist? I can't think of any place in PA that I would call wilderness.

Agreed. To me wilderness means "untouched". We have wilderness areas that are no longer touched. Small when compared to the west, but they are there nonetheless. But even those, well, 99% were completely clearcut sometime between 1890 and 1920 in the logging boom. And what grew back in no way represents what was there. The northern woods went from about 80% pine (and chestnut made up a decent portion of the hardwoods) to about 80% mixed hardwoods, lacking chestnut.

Are there any places in PA that are more than 3 miles from a road?

Yes, we have a number of them, assuming by "road", you mean currently open to automobiles. Most of them do have old roads, gated or grown over, traversing them as a remnant of the logging days. That said, 3-4 miles as the crow flies to the nearest dirt road is about as remote as we do get.

Even in the west, such as the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness, when you study a map and consider as the crow flies distances, finding a place less than 5 miles from a road isn't as easy as you'd think. The difference between here and there is that, ok, you come to a small dirt road, then have 10 more miles, then another single dirt road, then 10 more miles, then another single dirt road. There are places 30+ miles from the nearest PAVED road, 50+ miles from the nearest small town, and 150 miles from the nearest sizable town.

The Bob Marshall Wilderness is probably the largest truly road-less stretch in the lower 48.

 

[rrt]

Yes, fishers were reintroduced to control porkies. But, as those who spend a lot of time in the woods will tell you, they eat a lot of other things other than porkies; porcupines are not their favorite meal. Around here, the porcupine population has increased greatly since the reintroduction of fishers. Our fishers do not seem to like porkies.

Rewilding: I think that the PFBC and its Operation Future program rewilded significant numbers of trout streams. I think it might be nice if the PGC rewilded the PUBLIC LAND deer herd, especially in northcentral Pennsylvania where the deer herd is having trouble keeping up with the predation on it.

 

[lowkey]

If there was one re-wilding project I could get behind, it would be a reduction in roads. Roads provide access to wilderness in a manner that could be considered grotesque. That is, the most boorish and thoughtless among us, finds it all too easy to access and abuse the natural world in a way that we all suffer from. They are also a significant source of pollution in our streams, especially from silt. There are just far too many roads in this state.

I'm not suggesting a reduction of access. But what would be wrong if we could only get to wilderness by foot or horseback or any other traditional, less impactful method?

Who knows what wild creatures would end up back in our forests if all of our nasty "vehicles" weren't capable of getting us there....

 

[tomitrout]

Who knows what wild creatures would end up back in our forests if all of our nasty "vehicles" weren't capable of getting us there....

Unicorns.

I bet the unicorns would come back.

 

[moon1284]

I like roads and "vehicles".

 

[pcray1231]

me too.

lowkey is indeed proposing a reduction of access. If a spot is currently a 3 mile walk from the nearest access point, and you propose making it 10 miles, that's a reduction in access.

He makes his own point in the reasoning. Wants to see less people there. If you haven't changed the desire to get there, but there's less people, what's different? Less access, obviously.

I agree humans are generally bad for the environment, so we likely agree on the effects. It's just that I want to be in wild places so I can't really criticize others for wanting the same thing. I agree there's too many people in PA (check our population density vs. say, Montana). But again, I'm here, so I can't complain about others being here either.

And I don't put a great deal of value in nature for nature's sake. I think natural environments provide a great deal of recreational value and health (mental and physical) benefits for humans. Morseo than say, another strip mall. As such, I wanna see more of natural environments. But if you can't readily reach them, their value is much diminished. The same as if an absolutely fantastic wild trout stream exists right next door, but is surrounded by posted signs, it has no value at all.

 

[BrookieChaser]

^^ Wow. Now that's why we can't have nice things.

 

[The_Sasquatch]

I kinda like Lowkey's idea. We DO have too many roads in the state, and they DO have an impact on streams.

 

[Eccles]

geebee wrote:
The UK has many successful reintroductions under its belt now - otters, grey foxes, red squirrels, beavers, ospreys etc etc and some that failed.

Yea the UK has some but, what are grey foxes? And red squirrels are the native squirrel. Otters certainly. Saw them regularly when fishing the Tweed system and other Scottish waters. But their succesful re-establishment not without controversy - many coarse (rough) anglers not at all happy with their successful reintroduction. Here in PA they just reopen the trapping season and the conservationists who have done the hard work reintroducing the native otter here put their heads in their hands.

If you meant grey wolves ... that debate is ongoing and it isn't simply so that the country can have them back but equally as a means of bringing some semblance of balance back to the runaway red deer population. A thought process that might resonate for PA and what's been termed its "fern forests".

 

[The_Sasquatch]

pcray1231 wrote:
The same as if an absolutely fantastic wild trout stream exists right next door, but is surrounded by posted signs, it has no value at all.

Yeah I mean, what good could cold, clean water do ANYONE if you can't fish it?

 

[troutbert]

Regarding roads and streams, have you ever seen this?:

Driving on a forest road that parallels a small headwater stream, you see that the road grade occupies the ENTIRE floodplain.

And the stream channel is confined into a straight ditch-like form, wedged between the road grade and the one hillslope.

This is very common.

Such straightened, confined channels typically form few pools so they support low trout populations.

And maintaining the road requires that if trees fall into the stream, creating some structure that forms pools and cover, that needs to be removed. Because LWD induces flooding, which is a natural process, but flooding causes problem with the road.

So LWD is typically kept clear where roads are right along streams, and often the stream channels are dredged out, again to keep the stream from flooding and eroding the road.

As long as that road grade is smack in against that stream, the stream habitat and trout population will never get good.

The only solution, if you want good habitat and trout populations is to get rid of that road grade. The road can be relocated higher up, where it is out of the floodplain. And the present road grade can be deconstructed and the land restored to forest.

In some cases the roads are simply unnecessary and should simply be eliminated, which would reduce the cost compared to the above scenario.

"Road ripping" has been done in some places in the west, and I heard that they are doing this in a few places in the Monongahela National Forest in WV.

In WV it is being done specifically for stream restoration. They are not eliminating roads from the national forest on a large scale basis, they are doing it in places where the roads have a strong, direct negative impact on wild trout streams.

If anyone knows of similar projects in PA, please let us know.

 

[tomitrout]

Yeah I mean, what good could cold, clean water do ANYONE if you can't fish it?

Well isn't it obvious? If you can't fish it then it has no value, duh.

What good is a resource if you can't exploit it?

 

[lowkey]

Pcray, you are mistaken:

"lowkey is indeed proposing a reduction of access"

What I am proposing would reduce access by motorized vehicles. If this reduces access by individuals, that is a matter of choice.

 

[Chaz]

House and feral cats kill many more animals than all the fishers in PA. Cats kill millions of animals a year for fun. We only see the trophies they drop by the door.

 

[Chaz]

The_Sasquatch wrote:
Or the Elk Herd?

But the western elk are not the same animal, the eastern elk was a woodland animal, the west elk clearly is not. They also looked different. The eastern elk looked much more like a red deer and has no while rump, the western elk has the big white rump. So it is not a reintroduction it is an introduction.

 

[lowkey]

Troutbert, no I haven't heard of any plans to reintroduce wolves in Pa.....

Sasquatch, thanks for liking the idea of fewer roads. Fewer roads, if it was done slowly and broadly, would create more wilderness nearer to all of us no matter where we lived.

Spring Valley Park in York County has blocked off the main road through the park. I took a walk through it a couple of weeks back. We saw other walkers as well. It was much more peaceful and inviting than when there was motor traffic.....

 

[troutbert]

Some years back I heard a talk by a Game Commission biologist. His ideas were to get rid of the roads that are down along the streams.

And to just have haul roads up on the high ground for harvesting timber. And managing the timber on a long rotation, i.e. only cutting about once every 200 years, to allow the trees to really large. And closing those haul roads and letting vegetation grow on them in the 200 years in between.

Oh, I forgot to mention, he was a RETIRED Game Commission biologist.

 

[lowkey]

That's a beautiful idea. Sometimes dreams do come true. Time will tell....

It would be great to give the trees a chance to get bigger. And those haul roads would make great paths for trekkers.