Raibow Trout Question on Reproduction

I have caught lots and lots of wild bows in limestoners and freestoners all over central pa , mainly centre and blair county . I say wild bc alot of these streams i fish havent seen a rainbow stocking in 10-15 years . ( i researched , my grandfather works foR PAFBC) . Also , one for example Black Moshannon Creek is regularly stocked with brooks and bows and browns . All the standard stocking size 10 inch plus. I have caught many 2-4 inch bows and browns . This leads me to say that there is wild bow reproduction throughout pa !!! But hey im just here for fun !!!
 
If the PFBC stocked wild-strain rainbows all over the state, there would be reproducing rainbow trout all over the state, many hundreds, if not thousands of streams.

Rainbows are found in Porcupine Cr, and some other small freestoners in that region, and also in some other small freestoners in the Ligonier region. These are not unusually fertile freestone streams. And rainbows are found in many other mountain freestone streams all up and down the Appalachians. So that theory is disproved.

It is true that some streams are so poorly buffered against acid rain that only brook trout can live there. And then there are some stretches of headwater streams that are so poorly buffered against acid rain that no fish can live there at all, not even brookies.

But all the freestoners with moderate fertility, that now support mixed brown/brook populations, could support wild rainbows, if a viable strain was stocked.

I'm concerned that the rainbows the PFBC is getting from down south may be a viable strain. I don't know for sure, but if people are finding little wild rainbows in streams like Cross Fork Creek and Black Moshannon, that's a new development. There didn't used to be wild rainbows in those stream.

Wider proliferation of wild rainbows could be a disaster for PA's brook trout. You can read more about it below. Be sure to read the last line.

http://afs.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1577%2F1548-8659(1985)114%3C195%3AEOERTI%3E2.0.CO%3B2
 
Wow! Man did this thread take off. Thought it was a good question.
I have to apologize for leading some of you down the limestone path, that was an example to bring forth the acid levels. I have caught wild rainbows in freestoners but not near the numbers prevelant in limestoners. Nor the size the wild rainbows can achieve in the limestoners. Dont remember any in the same stadium as the 20"-24"ers in Big and Falling Spring.
As far as tolerance to acid, I helped stock Stony Creek last year with a waterways patrolman named Mark Swissberger was it? Anyhoo as most of you know Stony has a limestone well at the top of it to minimize some of the effects of mining from years gone by. When I asked him why only browns and brooks he said that the RAINBOWS not the browns couldnt take the acid levels that still remained. The only thing I can back that up with is on the Fish Commissions website. I checked 10 counties and only a couple streams (Breeches included) stocked all three types of trout. All the rest of the streams recieved either rainbow and brown or brook and brown. Or just one type of course. Except for only one stream, just one, out of streams from 10 counties recieved rainbows and brooks only. The Little Lehigh. A very low acid level, limestone stream.
But, I've been wrong before and all these posts intrigue me. Have some friends much smarter than me and a computer full of information. See if I can find anything out that wasn't already posted.
 
It was a very good question squaretail.

You seem to be correct about sensitivity to acid of rainbows and browns. I found this at the PF&BC wibsite. "Like brook trout, they (brown trout) are also somewhat tolerant of acidity." and this "Rainbows are the trout least tolerant of acidity."

http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Fish_Boat/pafish/fishhtms/chap16.htm
 
Squaretail wrote:
.......All the rest of the streams recieved either rainbow and brown or brook and brown. Or just one type of course. Except for only one stream, just one, out of streams from 10 counties recieved rainbows and brooks only. The Little Lehigh. A very low acid level, limestone stream.
posted.
Click to expand...

I believe you will find that when a stream has a high density of wilt trout and is stocked, it will be stocked with trout other than the wild species present. This is to prevent thinning of the gene pool of the wild species. And also primarily to eliminate doubt about identifying wild fish when future surveys occur.
 
Never heard of that one before. At 1st a flag went up but focusing on "when a stream has a high density of trout" came to mind, that does sound like a viable option. Interesting.
Seems like this board has members into trout like I am. The other one I visit half the time reminds you of the two old guys that used to sit in the balcony yackin and crabbin on that old "Muppets" television show.
 
Squaretail wrote:
The other one I visit half the time reminds you of the two old guys that used to sit in the balcony yackin and crabbin on that old "Muppets" television show.
Click to expand...

Stick around, This site gets that way sometimes, only there is way more than 2.:-D
 
I don't care what anyone tells you, stocking a stream that already has a "HIGH DENSITY OF WILD TROUT" is insanity, and a huge waste of $'s that PFBC does not have.
Stocking over a high population of wild trout should never be an option.
 
I love what you say and believe in what you say and was strictly set on what you say for a while.
Some streams can hold their own without stockies and some could if given the chance but we just cant put spec regs on every stream out there. Bait and spin fisherman are where most of the money you speak of comes from. Let them come catch the stockies in the spring and let us catch the holdovers and wild/natives in the summer. If theres no stockies for them to put on the dinner table that might mean a couple natives could end up there in their place. The Breeches is certainly capable of a wild trout fishery and was tried a while back but failed because the wild population couldn't keep up with the amount being harvested. When I get frustrated about that stuff I try and remember the days when I used a spincaster or spinning rod to take trout home like I was a triumphant hero. Most of us didnt start out with flyrod in hand and a code of ethics on conservation. But I like your fire, man.
 
That didn't take long.

I agree with Chaz 100 percent on this one. As a general rule, any stream that has a decent popularion of wild trout should not be stocked ... with very few exceptions.

You don't need no stinkin special regs. We have too many different types as it is. To put it bluntly ... if you stock it, they will come. Therefore, don't stock it, and the freezer fillers won't come. You see, freezer fillers like to follow the white trucks. Stocked streams get hammered, and inevitably, wild fish get harvested along with the stocked trout. Many freezer fillers, although they are targeting the white truck hatch, view a wild trout as a bonus catch, and are sure to keep that over a rubber fish.

When you stop stoking a stream, it sometimes takes awhile for the freezer fillers to figure out the white trucks don't stop there anymore. they may return there for a year or two, maybe even three, but eventually they will give and go to the stocked holes near the roads.

Most of the fished stocked should be simply put in ponds at the hatchery and these ponds should be opened to the public. If they did that, they could stop stocking all streams that have high Class C or better. Many of the freezer fillers would be quite happy to go there to limit out. You don't believe me??? Several years ago a group of us stopped at a co-op hatchery when they did just that. It was completey packed with "anglers" with stringers. We just happened to be passing by.

Think of the money they would save in gas alone.
 
You are on Spot with that .. True most streams need stocking , and alot benefit . I fish a particular stream ,that after 1 week after the last stock truck hits it . Well people thnk all the fish are gone . I fished the whole summer and say not a person .. To boot I caught lots of hold over , that eventually would reproduce ..

Also I think most bait slingers , just want to say "GOT MY LIMIT TODAY " So drop the limit to 3 fish ...
I guess I m a snob . I never fished with bait . I was brought up since i was 8 fly fishing ......
HAVE A GREAT DAY !!!
 
The wild rainbows that are now appearing in much greater numbers in the "Harvey" section of Spruce Creek may be a good case in point. These fish - primarily fall spawners - are almost certainly a result of private stocking. I wonder to what degree private stocking may affect the gene pool of the state's rainbows? Might private clubs be infusing our waters with fish that possess a greater proclivity to spawn? It's a complex question and probably very hard to answer definitively but it would not surprise me that we may see more spawning rainbows in PA due to more diversified supplies of hatchery fish.
 
RangerKeen, I wouldn’t say you’re a snob. I bet many if not most of the guys on this board have bait fished, and many if not most would like to see less harvest of fish in trout streams that support reproduction and/or holdover trout. I think the difference is just that some people fish because they love the sport, and some people fish because they kind of like the sport but like the idea of eating the fish they catch, or showing off the fish they catch, more than being able to catch them more frequently and most of the year. It has nothing to do with snobbery or elitism, it’s just a matter of preferences.
 
Fishidiot's post raises the question as to whether the PFBC should exert more control over private clubs who stock "their" water with their fish.
 
Fishidiot wrote:
The wild rainbows that are now appearing in much greater numbers in the "Harvey" section of Spruce Creek may be a good case in point. These fish - primarily fall spawners - are almost certainly a result of private stocking. I wonder to what degree private stocking may affect the gene pool of the state's rainbows? Might private clubs be infusing our waters with fish that possess a greater proclivity to spawn? It's a complex question and probably very hard to answer definitively but it would not surprise me that we may see more spawning rainbows in PA due to more diversified supplies of hatchery fish.
Click to expand...

Thats a great point...and, I might add, why it is against the law to introduce wildlife to Pennsylvania without proper permitting. Regardless how you feel about the F&BC stocking over wild trout, the fact that private clubs may be importing rainbows capable of reproduction increases the stress on Brook Trout, should they be present in the system where the imports are stocked.

Something to think about...
 
Wulff-Man wrote:
I think the difference is just that some people fish because they love the sport, and some people fish because they kind of like the sport but like the idea of eating the fish they catch, or showing off the fish they catch, more than being able to catch them more frequently and most of the year. It has nothing to do with snobbery or elitism, it’s just a matter of preferences.
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Then there are guys like me. I'm sure you can tell that I love the sport, but I also like to eat trout (occasionally). Yes, we do exist. I also grew up using bait for trout. Self taught fly angler who learned fishing for bluegills. I also still use bait on occasion for trout, but only for early season stocked trout and only if I plan on keeping a few. If it were just me, I'd throw them all back. I prefer the fishing over the eating of trout, but my wife likes trout so I try to bring a few home once in awhile. Personally I'd rather have a burger. She prefers the wild trout over stocked, but has been informed that the only time I will bring her any of those is if I happen to hook one deep (happens on rare occasions).
 
Wulff-Man I like your outlook on angler prefs. And as we get more and more enveloped by the sport we tend to fall in love with the sport and the fish. I believe baitfishermen deserve the chance to develop just like I did. When I sell a flyrod it has always been to a baitfishermen or a flyfishermen. Never once has somebody come in and said "Give me that Diamondback. Gonna start the boy fishing tomorrow." (God bless ya Ranger) Bait and spinfishers are where are future flyrodders come from. Like it or not. Some are nothing but rapists really. Kill everything, leave garbage,ect. But some will develop the romance with the sport most flyfishermen I know have. They have a right to our beautful wilds just as we do. They pay for more of it than we do. I WISH we could send them all to a stocked pond. I really do. But 2 wrongs dont make a right.
I thought all trout stocked in Pa by the commission or club had to be OK'd by the Fish Commission? No?
I'm gettin sucked into these posts while I could be fishin. Yeeeshh!
 
I don't know the details like some of the other guys here do, but the PFBC does have to OK any private stocking. They just apparently haven't worried about the effects of stocking reproducing rainbows, I guess. Is it by design or chance that they themselves don't stock rainbows that reproduce well? I think it's interesting what someone said earlier about the PFBC stocking different species over wild populations to avoid interbreeding and to be able to differentiate wild trout. It seems that stocking different species that may reproduce could be very detrimental (like rainbows wiping out brookies).
 
Wulff-Man wrote:
I don't know the details like some of the other guys here do, but the PFBC does have to OK any private stocking.
Click to expand...

As always, I am willing to be proven wrong, but every time I have searched through regulations for a prohibition on stocking without prior permission, I have come up empty. If I recall, my conclusion from the research that brook, brown and rainbow trout may be stocked freely in any water of the Commonwealth, except that "t is unlawful to place fish in waters that have been designated by the Commission as catch and release, wilderness trout or wild trout management waters except with the express written consent of the Executive Director or his designee."

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chapter71/chap71toc.html


:-(
 
JackM wrote:
As always, I am willing to be proven wrong, but every time I have searched through regulations for a prohibition on stocking without prior permission, I have come up empty. If I recall, my conclusion from the research that brook, brown and rainbow trout may be stocked freely in any water of the Commonwealth, except that "t is unlawful to place fish in waters that have been designated by the Commission as catch and release, wilderness trout or wild trout management waters except with the express written consent of the Executive Director or his designee."

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chapter71/chap71toc.html


:-(
Click to expand...


jack, I think you are for the most part correct on this one, with maybe a couple more exceptions.

for example, this might not be true on public waters (i really don't know). so for the rest of this, I'm talking private land/water.

I had looked into this when i found that a club was stocking browns in one of my favorite childhood brook trout streams. First i confronted a member who siad it was their land, they can do what they want. PF&BC pretty much agreed when I asked them. they

I do know that it is illegal in PA (and Ohio) to transport fish from one body of water to another (unless you are the PF&BC). However, I'm pretty sure it is legal to purchase fish from a licensed hatchery for the purpose of stocking a stream on your land. some of these clubs have their own hatcheries, and I believe you have to have a permit to raise your own trout (licensed hatchery). But if you have that permit, you stock private waters or even sell the fish.

I think the only time the fish commision has any say so as to what you do with fish you raise is if they provided you with the fish. There are one or two guys here who are involved with coop hatcheries that might be able to conferm or deny this.

Disclaimer: I can't back this up with documentation at this time, but i do believe it to be true.
 
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