Public creek "private" due to a club

[Peyton]

I was fishing a stretch of french creek for the second time yesterday. There are nice fish in this spot, which is why I was fishing there. I accessed it through a private farm, so according to the law I have to stay on the private land I was fishing from. I was told by a guy that I have to leave, as the state gave them a permit to run a derby for their club until memorial day. Due to that he called it private water and refused to listen to a word I said. I called bullshit and walked five feet down and caught two nice trout. The first thing listed on the permit for a derby is"This permit does not give any right to property, either in real estate or in material, nor does this permit convey any exclusive privileges, nor shall it be construed to grant or confer any right, title, easement or interest in, to or over any land belonging to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, neither does it authorize any injury to private rights, nor any infringement of Federal, State, or local laws or regulations.". I plan on calling fish and boat to ask about it because it doesn't sound right. Does anyone know anything about this?

 

[Silent Ocelot]

No, but it got me thinking, I really need to get back to French Creek!

 

[6xAdams(Jones)]

Nice fish!!!
Did the derby sponsor stock those footballs? More specifically, were they tagged for the derby?
Also, was there someone with you to back you up, during the confrontation? (I'm guessing that someone took the photos.)
I would guess that you're within your rights to access from the private farm, and also wade the creek upstream and downstream from the access. Good idea getting confirmation from PFBC.

 

[Bamboozle]

I was fishing a stretch of french creek for the second time yesterday. There are nice fish in this spot, which is why I was fishing there. I accessed it through a private farm, so according to the law I have to stay on the private land I was fishing from. I was told by a guy that I have to leave, as the state gave them a permit to run a derby for their club until memorial day. Due to that he called it private water and refused to listen to a word I said. I called bullshit and walked five feet down and caught two nice trout. The first thing listed on the permit for a derby is"This permit does not give any right to property, either in real estate or in material, nor does this permit convey any exclusive privileges, nor shall it be construed to grant or confer any right, title, easement or interest in, to or over any land belonging to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, neither does it authorize any injury to private rights, nor any infringement of Federal, State, or local laws or regulations.". I plan on calling fish and boat to ask about it because it doesn't sound right. Does anyone know anything about this?

PA ain't Montana...

It doesn't matter how you accessed the creek, the streambed of French Creek is on a combination of State, county and private property and any of the three can legally restrict or prevent access.

For example there is a kids derby in Warwick Park earlier in May and Chester County Parks & Recreation "legally" closes the stream in the park for several days in advance.

It is important to know exactly who owns the property in question and ask them directly but you really have no "rights" on French Creek except those given to you by the landowners.

Stirring the pot will only cause other issues and/or loss of access...

 

[Silent Ocelot]

Stirring the pot will only cause other issues and/or loss of access...

But it's worth it to catch those fish.

 

[wildtrout2]

Stocked or not, those are some HOGS.

 

[Bamboozle]

But it's worth it to catch those fish.

And somebody spent a lot of $$$ to plant them for a specfic group to catch so "poaching" so to speak only stirs the pot more...

 

[Silent Ocelot]

I am aware, that post was partially sarcasm. I can't take a side on this argument on whether Peyton can or cannot fish those waters as I don't know enough about private property, but your initial comment has me leaning towards him being in the wrong.

 

[Peyton]

Nice fish!!!
Did the derby sponsor stock those footballs? More specifically, were they tagged for the derby?
Also, was there someone with you to back you up, during the confrontation? (I'm guessing that someone took the photos.)
I would guess that you're within your rights to access from the private farm, and also wade the creek upstream and downstream from the access. Good idea getting confirmation from PFBC.

My brother and friend were with me, and the farm owns upstream and downstream of where I was told I can’t fish. There are rock dams going entirely across and was told that I have to stay away from them. I was tempted to ask if they got a permit to build them, but decided to just catch some fish instead. No fish were tagged, and I didn’t see any of the other five anglers so much as hook a fish. Real confusing situation

It is important to know exactly who owns the property in question and ask them directly but you really have no "rights" on French Creek except those given to you by the landowners.

Stirring the pot will only cause other issues and/or loss of access...

I asked the owner and he told us to go have fun. There’s a different owner on the opposite side so I don’t know why he told me I can’t fish the side I had permission to fish. All the other guys there asked me what I was catching and what I was using, and told me that it’s still public.

 

[pcray1231]

If you were on private property that you have permission to fish, you're ok. You have to stay on the property where you have permission, of course. You can't stray onto other peoples property. Going onto someone elses property would require permission from that property's owner.

If the property owner gave this club exclusive permission, then turned around and gave you permission, then I could see the club having a gripe with the owner. But its the property owner who has the power.

The answer to the club guy is simply, "I have permission to fish here from the person who owns this property."

 

[Peyton]

If you were on private property that you have permission to fish, you're ok. You have to stay on the property where you have permission, of course. You can't stray onto other peoples property. Going onto someone elses property would require permission from that property's owner.

If the property owner gave this club exclusive permission, then turned around and gave you permission, then I could see the club having a gripe with the owner. But its the property owner who has the power.

The answer to the club guy is simply, "I have permission to fish here from the person who owns this property."

He told me that it didn’t matter. He acknowledged that the creek is public, and I was fishing from private property with permission. He told me to leave before something happened in quite a threatening tone. Next time I’ll stay on the bank and not enter the water, and hope the club guy isn’t there. All the other members didn’t mind and were happy to see someone catching them.

 

[pcray1231]

He told me that it didn’t matter. He acknowledged that the creek is public, and I was fishing from private property with permission

It can't be both public and private property.

But if you were on private property with the owners permission, then you are in the right legally speaking.

 

[Peyton]

It can't be both public and private property.

But if you were on private property with the owners permission, then you are in the right legally speaking.

It’s navigable water, so public is you went through a public access point. I went through private access so I was limited to only the property I was given permission to fish. I tried to ask him how it’s private and public with no signage, but he kept yelling. He wasn’t willing to have a civil conversation, so I didn’t try.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

I don't think French Creek has been determined by court to be navigable so if a landowner owns both sides they could restrict access. Stream access laws in PA are complex and I would proceed with caution in most cases. If you access from private property and have permission from the actual property owner you would be fine.

 

[wgmiller]

It’s navigable water, so public is you went through a public access point. I went through private access so I was limited to only the property I was given permission to fish. I tried to ask him how it’s private and public with no signage, but he kept yelling. He wasn’t willing to have a civil conversation, so I didn’t try.

Even when it is "navigable", you still have to be within the "high water" mark. Challenging angling rights in "navigable" waters really can be a tricky process. In most instances it's really not worth it to challenge someone when it comes to your ability to fish a certain stretch of water. You end up with unintended consequences. It's far easier to have a civil discussion and if it's not resolved, you just pack up and go on your way. There are countless miles of fishable water in this state, so getting into an argument or pissing off a landowner just isn't worth it.

Interestingly enough, you do appear to be correct about French Creek being a "navigable" waterway!

https://www.gis.dcnr.state.pa.us/publicstreambeds/

 

[mute]

Even when it is "navigable", you still have to be within the "high water" mark. Challenging angling rights in "navigable" waters really can be a tricky process. In most instances it's really not worth it to challenge someone when it comes to your ability to fish a certain stretch of water. You end up with unintended consequences. It's far easier to have a civil discussion and if it's not resolved, you just pack up and go on your way. There are countless miles of fishable water in this state, so getting into an argument or pissing off a landowner just isn't worth it.

While i definitely agree with you, I think that second half of logic really only applies mostly to fishing those pure gems in PA that are non stocked sections of water that hold wild pouplations. Whether youre doing it for the fish or the environment, both would be valid. In this case, its were talking about a marginal stream and the only reason one would bother with said section in question is because of short windows opportunities of 10lb stocked fish lingering in it

 

[Peyton]

While i definitely agree with you, I think that second half of logic really only applies mostly to fishing those pure gems in PA that are non stocked sections of water that hold wild pouplations. Whether youre doing it for the fish or the environment, both would be valid. In this case, its were talking about a marginal stream and the only reason one would bother with said section in question is because of short windows opportunities of 10lb stocked fish lingering in it

10 is very conservative. Those two were the smallest fish in there and weighed 8.4 and 8.9. I'd rather catch some wilds, but its fun to throw some giant streamers at 25-30" trout and see what happens.

 

[wgmiller]

10 is very conservative. Those two were the smallest fish in there and weighed 8.4 and 8.9. I'd rather catch some wilds, but its fun to throw some giant streamers at 25-30" trout and see what happens.

Just rig up and head to Erie in the fall then. You can be a part of those festivities with miles of fishable water!

 

[JeffP]

10 is very conservative. Those two were the smallest fish in there and weighed 8.4 and 8.9. I'd rather catch some wilds, but its fun to throw some giant streamers at 25-30" trout and see what happens.

Who the heck is putting those huge trout in French? How much does a 10 ponder cost to raise?

 

[Peyton]

Who the heck is putting those huge trout in French? How much does a 10 ponder cost to raise?

Hundreds of dollars a fish, that’s why I respect them