Predicting wild trout presence
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k-bob
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did some winter fishing in small, tannic swamp-draining monroe county streams. took a shot the small tribs in sgl 127 south of Brady's lake. these are not on the natural repro list, but seemed big enough to not dry out. dark water, didn't see catch or see any brookies. chatted with a local hunter who also fishes and knew area streams, he said that in years of hunting the area and walking by the streams he hadn't spooked a trout. nice guy, he was surprised to see a fly fisherman there. 🙂
headed to nearby kistler run, known to have brookies. water also tannic, maybe a bit less so? in moderate flows with some recent snowmelt, the dissolved aluminum was lower in kistler, .04 mg/l, than the tiny tribs south of brady (.08 mg/l aluminum). this was only cold water winter fishing, but if the brady tribs don't have brookies, could be an acid rain + natural swamp acid effect that is less on kistler. also could be thermal as those big headwaters swamps SE of Brady's lake must warm up in the summer.
now that I look at some maps, the streams with swampy headwaters and brookies around there (kistler, frame cabin, cross keys) may have longer stretches below the swamps that could drop the acidity.. (catskill bedrock, decent buffering).. I hit those brady tribs closer to their swampy drainage areas..
headed to nearby kistler run, known to have brookies. water also tannic, maybe a bit less so? in moderate flows with some recent snowmelt, the dissolved aluminum was lower in kistler, .04 mg/l, than the tiny tribs south of brady (.08 mg/l aluminum). this was only cold water winter fishing, but if the brady tribs don't have brookies, could be an acid rain + natural swamp acid effect that is less on kistler. also could be thermal as those big headwaters swamps SE of Brady's lake must warm up in the summer.
now that I look at some maps, the streams with swampy headwaters and brookies around there (kistler, frame cabin, cross keys) may have longer stretches below the swamps that could drop the acidity.. (catskill bedrock, decent buffering).. I hit those brady tribs closer to their swampy drainage areas..
k-bob
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PAGeologist once posted here that "AMD and acid rain will remain and impact streams until the water contacts either a rock/soil formation or another water body that can raise the pH."
I suppose the same is true for swamp acidity when combined w acidic rain...
I suppose the same is true for swamp acidity when combined w acidic rain...
k-bob
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TB reminded me that a 2010-2011 pfbc survey set found brookies in one sgl 127 swampy stream, fritz run, but no trout in two other sgl 127 swampy streams, "bill warner trib to the toby" and blexley run. Thanks I had forgotten that nice info.
http://pfbc.pa.gov/images/reports/2011bio/5x12_05unassessed.pdf
So apparently some in sgl 127 have em, and some dont.. for ex fritz and frame cabin do, bill warner and blexley dont.
Since I saw a big dissolved aluminum difference between kistler, which clearly has brookies, and streams where I caught and saw none (and an experienced local has seen none), I wonder if the difference between sgl127 streams with and without brookies is aluminum / pH and not thermal...
If so, I should probably test for aluminum before I go fishing up a trib.. once I start fishing I really like to keep going, so the alum test is faster.
http://pfbc.pa.gov/images/reports/2011bio/5x12_05unassessed.pdf
So apparently some in sgl 127 have em, and some dont.. for ex fritz and frame cabin do, bill warner and blexley dont.
Since I saw a big dissolved aluminum difference between kistler, which clearly has brookies, and streams where I caught and saw none (and an experienced local has seen none), I wonder if the difference between sgl127 streams with and without brookies is aluminum / pH and not thermal...
If so, I should probably test for aluminum before I go fishing up a trib.. once I start fishing I really like to keep going, so the alum test is faster.
k-bob
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Here's another bit of input on whether acidity/aluminum or thermal might explain why some swampy sgl 127 tribs have brookies but others don't.
I looked up the pH (6.0) and alkalinity (0-4) of Kistler run, which has brookies, in the detar wbtep study. these numbers are both among the lowest for about two dozen wbtep and comparison streams in the detar paper.
and Kistler had much lower aluminum (.04) than Tripup (.08 alum, when 2.0 is lethal), a 127 trib that doesn't seem to have brookies.
So I'll guess that Kistler is close to the edge of acidity and relased aluminum that brookies can handle in a big rain or snowmelt, but some of the other swampy 127 streams just get too acidic for trout.
I looked up the pH (6.0) and alkalinity (0-4) of Kistler run, which has brookies, in the detar wbtep study. these numbers are both among the lowest for about two dozen wbtep and comparison streams in the detar paper.
and Kistler had much lower aluminum (.04) than Tripup (.08 alum, when 2.0 is lethal), a 127 trib that doesn't seem to have brookies.
So I'll guess that Kistler is close to the edge of acidity and relased aluminum that brookies can handle in a big rain or snowmelt, but some of the other swampy 127 streams just get too acidic for trout.
k-bob
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detar wbtep table 1 (see previous post) ...
sorry its tough to read, but the alkalinity column is fourth from right, and the only stream w/ 0-4 alkalinity is kistler. so much more aluminum than kistler may = no trout...
Evaluation of Catch-and-Release Regulations on Brook Trout in Pennsylvania Streams
Jason Detar, David Kristine, Tyler Wagner & Tom Greene
sorry its tough to read, but the alkalinity column is fourth from right, and the only stream w/ 0-4 alkalinity is kistler. so much more aluminum than kistler may = no trout...
Evaluation of Catch-and-Release Regulations on Brook Trout in Pennsylvania Streams
Jason Detar, David Kristine, Tyler Wagner & Tom Greene
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![DSCN0851[1].JPG](/data/attachments/1483187/1483187097-4cb5e0e8648ed340e9b1707179e9a85a.jpg?hash=TLXg6GSO00)
k-bob
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thanks franklin I like this stuff. map scan of union county bedrock from bucknell linked below; burnt-orange = tuscarora (low buffering) and tan = juniata (better sign for fish).
http://www.bucknell.edu/Images/Depts/Geology/UnionCountyGeology.jpg
p 255 of kirby paper discusses buffalo and n branch buffalo creeks there:
"Fig. 5 shows several phenomena commonly found in this
study. Panther Run and the North Branch of Buffalo Creek
originate in the Juniata, with initially low pH values in the
extreme headwaters (in organic-rich boggy areas) rising (pH?6.5
for most of their lengths) as the water flows for longer distances
through the Juniata. Below the confluence of these two streams,
the North Branch of Buffalo Creek flows through the Tuscarora,
but its pH remains near neutral due to the Juniata-influenced
headwaters. In contrast to most Tuscarora streams, the North
Branch of Buffalo Creek is in an “exceptional value watershed”
(PA DER, 1996) and is a Class A wilderness brook trout stream
(PA F&BC, 2006) in a roadless area.
In contrast, the main branch of Buffalo Creek flows through
an essentially roadless area (it is crossed by one gravel road
that does not parallel the stream) in the Tuscarora for 7 km.
The pH is less than 5 for at least 9 km. The main branch of
Buffalo Creek is officially listed as impaired due to atmospheric
deposition (PA DEP, 2004) and has no brook trout. The
stream historically supported a brook trout population and
had a pH of 7.0 and alkalinity of 61 mg L?1 as CaCO3 (Robbins,
1953). By 1970, this location had a pH of 5.5, and the stream
was judged to have too few brook trout to be stocked due to
“natural acidity” (Reed and Hoopes, 1970), which was actually
the impact of atmospheric deposition that continues today
(pH= 4.5 and no alkalinity)."
http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/kirby/KirbyEtAl2008STOTEN10392.pdf
http://www.bucknell.edu/Images/Depts/Geology/UnionCountyGeology.jpg
p 255 of kirby paper discusses buffalo and n branch buffalo creeks there:
"Fig. 5 shows several phenomena commonly found in this
study. Panther Run and the North Branch of Buffalo Creek
originate in the Juniata, with initially low pH values in the
extreme headwaters (in organic-rich boggy areas) rising (pH?6.5
for most of their lengths) as the water flows for longer distances
through the Juniata. Below the confluence of these two streams,
the North Branch of Buffalo Creek flows through the Tuscarora,
but its pH remains near neutral due to the Juniata-influenced
headwaters. In contrast to most Tuscarora streams, the North
Branch of Buffalo Creek is in an “exceptional value watershed”
(PA DER, 1996) and is a Class A wilderness brook trout stream
(PA F&BC, 2006) in a roadless area.
In contrast, the main branch of Buffalo Creek flows through
an essentially roadless area (it is crossed by one gravel road
that does not parallel the stream) in the Tuscarora for 7 km.
The pH is less than 5 for at least 9 km. The main branch of
Buffalo Creek is officially listed as impaired due to atmospheric
deposition (PA DEP, 2004) and has no brook trout. The
stream historically supported a brook trout population and
had a pH of 7.0 and alkalinity of 61 mg L?1 as CaCO3 (Robbins,
1953). By 1970, this location had a pH of 5.5, and the stream
was judged to have too few brook trout to be stocked due to
“natural acidity” (Reed and Hoopes, 1970), which was actually
the impact of atmospheric deposition that continues today
(pH= 4.5 and no alkalinity)."
http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/kirby/KirbyEtAl2008STOTEN10392.pdf
k-bob
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did some sgl127 fishing in moderate snowmelt yesterday (tends to increase acidity and aluminum) .. kistler aluminum was about .03-.04, while tripup had aluminum in the .13-.15 range (.2 for 2 days is lethal). makes sense that some streams there dont have brookies.
most of these streams are in the same catskill bedrock, difference may be due to degree of acid inputs from their headwaters bogs, and/ or the degree of acid buffering from soils they flow through?
most of these streams are in the same catskill bedrock, difference may be due to degree of acid inputs from their headwaters bogs, and/ or the degree of acid buffering from soils they flow through?
franklin
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I also own woodland in Union within the area covered by the map on the top link. There are seven springs on the property. It's been a while since they were tested and I don't have the reports anymore. I'll have to have some more tests done. Mainly out of curiosity. There is a nice stream on the property which has two branches. It's a feeder to Buffalo Creek. These would possibly be nice brookie streams but are blocked below by an old mill dam still in place.
Both my grandfathers were born in the 1800s in Union County. Both told stories of fishing many of those streams as youngsters prior to the logging which destroyed the streams for many years. Many of those streams or stream sections held native brookies back then.
I've researched the logging history of the area more so than the geology. Having roots in the area and a piece of property that just happens to reside in the area of BU's studies makes it specially interesting.
k-bob
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linked map shows some surveys round there .. for ex., brookies (blue dot) in stony run just south of buffalo creek gooseneck:
http://chesapeakeconservancy.org/conserve/how-do-we-do-it-data-driven-conservation/fish-wildlife/susquehanna-river-freshwater-research-unassessed-waters/
http://chesapeakeconservancy.org/conserve/how-do-we-do-it-data-driven-conservation/fish-wildlife/susquehanna-river-freshwater-research-unassessed-waters/
k-bob
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now that I look at these surveys more closely...
http://pfbc.pa.gov/images/reports/2011bio/5x12_05unassessed.pdf
they identify two sgl 127 area streams w/ brookies (rucks and fritz) and 2 without (bill warner and blexley). some other sgl 127 streams are known to have brookies (frame cabin and cross keys are on wilderness list; kistler has been wbtep)...
given the diffrences in dissolved aluminum values I have seen between these swamp streams, for ex. from .125, on same day w/ some snowmelt, I'd guess its natural bog acid + acid rain/deposition that causes some to these streams to have no trout while others get by....
Interesting that the streams are in Catskill Bedrock which usually seems to have enough buffering for brook trout. But in an area this swampy it may just be too much acid on some of these streams
http://pfbc.pa.gov/images/reports/2011bio/5x12_05unassessed.pdf
they identify two sgl 127 area streams w/ brookies (rucks and fritz) and 2 without (bill warner and blexley). some other sgl 127 streams are known to have brookies (frame cabin and cross keys are on wilderness list; kistler has been wbtep)...
given the diffrences in dissolved aluminum values I have seen between these swamp streams, for ex. from .125, on same day w/ some snowmelt, I'd guess its natural bog acid + acid rain/deposition that causes some to these streams to have no trout while others get by....
Interesting that the streams are in Catskill Bedrock which usually seems to have enough buffering for brook trout. But in an area this swampy it may just be too much acid on some of these streams
