ph Meter

[salmonoid]

Does anyone use a digital pH meter streamside? If so, what brand/model do you use and what do you like/dislike about it? I've noted a decline in some of the streams I fish around the state and would like to tabulate some data on them, to see if acidity is contributing to their demise.

I also stumbled on a natural gas leak bubbling up out of the earth on a tributary in the ANF this past weekend and am wondering what pH that brew might be spewing forth at..

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[pcray1231]

I use the indicator strips for pH.

http://www.indigo.com/Test-Strips/gph-test-strips/ph-paper-1-14.html

However, I'll warn that on a lot of freestoners, pH fluctuates a lot. My theory is that a stream is mostly governed by the worst of times. So a really bad reading may be telling, but a relatively good reading may mean nothing. FWIW, the worst times are generally, but not always, during peak flow in the early spring. Frozen ground limits the effect of springs, and a snow melt mixed with fresh rain maximizes the direct acid precip runoff.

Alkalinity is more steady (but still not totally steady), and a better indicator than pH. It's a measure of the buffering capability, or how much acid must be added to lower the pH a certain amount. The quick test kits mostly suck, the minimum interval is like 40. When you're looking for the difference between 2 and 11, that doesn't help much. They will tell you limestoner vs. freestoner, but thats about it, and you can usually tell that without a fancy test anyway. I have used titration for a more accurate measurement, but its a hassle, and I only have the equipment because my wife is a chemist. It's been a while since I've done that. If anyone knows of a good, accurate kit to test alkalinity at freestoner levels, I'm all ears. You'd want to test this at low flows, when the springwater influence is maximized, to get an idea of how much minerals those springs add.

How do you know it was methane bubbling up? Just wondering? Air bubbles are common, especially around springs. In swamps too, that can actually be shallow methane from decaying plant matter, usually with a bunch of other stuff. But if its a true, deep earth methane leak, that could be real bad, and you should report it. Methane itself is odorless, so you wouldn't be able to tell by smell (unless it was a gas-line leak, they add stuff to make it smell). You could light a match, but that might not be such a good idea...

 

[afishinado]

pcray1231 wrote:
I use the indicator strips for pH.

http://www.indigo.com/Test-Strips/gph-test-strips/ph-paper-1-14.html

However, I'll warn that on a lot of freestoners, pH fluctuates a lot. My theory is that a stream is mostly governed by the worst of times. So a really bad reading may be telling, but a relatively good reading may mean nothing. FWIW, the worst times are generally, but not always, during peak flow in the early spring. Frozen ground limits the effect of springs, and a snow melt mixed with fresh rain maximizes the direct acid precip runoff.

Alkalinity is more steady (but still not totally steady), and a better indicator than pH. It's a measure of the buffering capability, or how much acid must be added to lower the pH a certain amount. The quick test kits mostly suck, the minimum interval is like 40. When you're looking for the difference between 2 and 11, that doesn't help much. They will tell you limestoner vs. freestoner, but thats about it, and you can usually tell that without a fancy test anyway. I have used titration for a more accurate measurement, but its a hassle, and I only have the equipment because my wife is a chemist. It's been a while since I've done that. I[color=FF0000]f anyone knows of a good, accurate kit to test alkalinity at freestoner levels, I'm all ears. [/color] You'd want to test this at low flows, when the springwater influence is maximized, to get an idea of how much minerals those springs add.

How do you know it was methane bubbling up? Just wondering? Air bubbles are common, especially around springs. In swamps too, that can actually be shallow methane from decaying plant matter, usually with a bunch of other stuff. But if its a true, deep earth methane leak, that could be real bad, and you should report it. Methane itself is odorless, so you wouldn't be able to tell by smell (unless it was a gas-line leak, they add stuff to make it smell). You could light a match, but that might not be such a good idea...

Here ya go guys:

http://www.filterwater.com/pc-188-9-waterproof-ph-meter.aspx

http://www.marinedepot.com/Hanna_Instruments_Waterproof_pH_Tester_with_Replaceable_Electrode_Single_Item_Monitors_Controllers_for_Saltwater_Aquariums-Hanna_Instruments-HN1131-FITEMOID-vi.html

 

[pcray1231]

What am I missing? Both look like fine pH meters, but I don't think either measures alkalinity.

 

[afishinado]

pcray1231 wrote:
What am I missing? Both look like fine pH meters, but I don't think either measures alkalinity.

I thought PH was the measurement of water for acidity/alkalinity? On what scale do you measure alkalinity, the PH scale? Right?

 

[pcray1231]

No. Alkalinity is not the same as basicity. The pH scale runs from 0-14, with 7 being neutral, and measures the acidity/basicity of the water. Alkalinity is measured in mg/L by the fish commission, though other measures do exist. Swimming pools, I think, often use ppm (parts per million).

Alkalinity is not a measure of the pH. It is a measure of the resistance to change of the pH. A measure of the mineral content of the water, if you will. The main mineral responsible, I think, is CaCO3 (chemical constituent of limestone and other rocks), though other minerals play a part too. Those minerals might be of neutral pH. However, if acid is added, the minerals decompose, neutralizing the acid in the process. So, its most similar to water hardness.

So, if you have two glasses of water of equal volume, one with low alkalinity and one with high alkalinity. Now you add the same amount and type of acid to each glass. The low alkalinity glass will overwhelm the mineral buffering and become acidic very quickly. The high alkalinity glass will change much less, in fact, it may not change at all until after it uses up all of the minerals. Thats essentially what titration is. You measure how much of that acid it takes to change the pH of a given volume of water a certain amount.

Freestoners can range in alkalinity from 0 up to around 30 or so. Limestoners from maybe 70 to 250. Those are fish commission numbers, and again, I think they're in mg/L, but am not sure of that. These numbers are listed on the class A list, but not on the natural reproduction list. For comparison, the various sections of the Letort range from 170-209, Spring from 95-199, Cross Fork is 15. Plenty of little headwater brookie streams are in the low single digits. Among limestoners, I don't know that the actual value has a huge effect, they're all really high. Among freestoners, the value is extremely important, the difference between a 2 and a 10 makes a world of difference. Also, among freestoners, bigger streams tend to be higher, but of course they tend to be warmer too, so there's that trade off to consider.

The pH of a stream with low alkalinity will fluctuate considerably. It may be of high pH one day, and very low the next. With high alkalinity, it will not change nearly as much with an acid event.

Unfortunately, since acid decomposes CaCO3, and freestoners have a limited amount of CaCO3 in their watersheds, acid rain slowly degrades that mineral content, and the alkalinity of freestone streams generally decreases over the years. Acid rain is thus not an instant death nail, its more like a time bomb, and each stream has a different length fuse. I'm confident some of the otherwise inexplicable stream degradations are the result of a loss of the CaCO3 in a watershed, which were many years in the making. You can bring them back with limestone sanding, but its a temporary solution.

Through environmental controls, both regulatory and voluntary mostly by coal power plants, acid rain is a decreasing problem. Our rain is less acidic than it used to be. But it is still acidic. Many streams have already reached the end of their fuses and blown up, while others are still burning, just at a slower rate.

 

[afishinado]

Great explanation and info, Pcray. Thanks.

 

[gfen]

He's looking for a hardness tester, too.

Have you tried the aquaria trade? These ratings are of supreme importance in specialized aspects of the hobby (reefers, Africans, discus, etc).

A few years back, there were several handheld autotesters available, and many more complete computerized systems with probes. I imagine now there's been even more of the full systems minimized to smaller, handheld units.

 

[salmonoid]

Here are some screen captures of a video I took. I'm pretty sure it's not a natural spring The smell is not completely obnoxious but there is an odor for sure. I know methane is odorless, but it's not exactly the smell of pipeline gas either.

The "spring" wasn't there last year, and the white/grey precipitate indicates a fouling of something in the water (looks like an aluminum oxide of some sort).

 

[pcray1231]

Thats weird. I don't know what that is?

I wouldn't automatically say its not natural, but I don't know that it is either.

Based on the precipitate, I'm guessing its acidic. Looks more like mine drainage, but if its truly within the ANF, there's not much of a coal history there.

 

[tomgamber]

Buy a bottle of swimming pool test strips...you'll get a PH and alkalinity measurement. Buy them at a discount store though. They are usually overpriced at a pool store.

 

[pcray1231]

I would get back out there with litmus paper and test the pH. If it is lower than the stream above it, I'd certainly contact the DEP. Keep us informed, this has gotten me very interested...

 

[tomgamber]

If that "spring" is new I'd let someone know anyway. It's their job. Doesn't sound good.

 

[salmonoid]

Video is below - the quality isn't the greatest, but you should be able to see the distinct bubbles rising from underneath the rock. It reminded me of a pot of stew. I would love to be able to test the pH, but alas, I was there this past weekend for opening day and don't anticipate that I will be getting back there anytime soon. Further, my GPS batteries died somewhere on my trek that day, so I can only bracket between my GPS track downstream, and a waypoint upstream, that the location is.



There are some seeps a little bit upstream, but they've been there for as long as I can remember.

 

[Gone4Day]

pcray1231 wrote:
If anyone knows of a good, accurate kit to test alkalinity at freestoner levels, I'm all ears.

Have you checked www.hach.com? Search for ‘total alkalinity’. They have several field test kits that might help. Looks costly to get much accuracy in the 1-20 mg/l range though.

 

[pcray1231]

That last pic looks a lot like mine acid drainage, and its possible your new "spring" is a new acid seep. The funny thing is, that the ANF doesn't have much historical coal activity. Places JUST to the south of it do, but I'm not aware of anything in the ANF itself.

Even if you can't make it back, you should indeed report it. At least tell someone else nearby where it is so they can go and mark it on the GPS to give the DEP a better location. I won't make it up that way until late May, otherwise I'd volunteer.

But this needs reported.

 

[salmonoid]

There is no coal mining anywhere near that location. There was a Superfund site not too far away, in Westline, but that was from a chemical company dumping tar into lagoons and ditches around the turn of the 20th century.

I have reported it to DEP; hopefully they will also take a look at the massive sediment loading that is occuring in those EV tributaries. Ironically, they have a big "Kinzua Creek Watershed Improvement Project" touting all the companies that are implementing best practices to protect the tributaries from sediment loading in that area.

Fish quantity has declined in the past ten years, but I landed the largest wild brookie out of a silt laden hole in that same stream on Sunday. Maybe they like the stuff?

 

[pcray1231]

Good job. Yeah, no coal mining up there. That last picture is certainly acidic, though. And I think the "new spring" appears to be as well.

There are natural formations of iron pyrite, which is the same stuff that causes mine drainage to be acidic. I dunno, but its possible. Also possible is that its realated to railroads or drilling, though I'm not sure how either could explain what you're seeing there. I'd e-mail them the pictures too.

As far as the big brookie, in a lot of streams, especially freestoners, fish size and abundance are inversely proportional. Big fish is a sign of few fish.

 

[troutbert]

salmonoid wrote:
Does anyone use a digital pH meter streamside? If so, what brand/model do you use and what do you like/dislike about it? I've noted a decline in some of the streams I fish around the state and would like to tabulate some data on them, to see if acidity is contributing to their demise.

I also stumbled on a natural gas leak bubbling up out of the earth on a tributary in the ANF this past weekend and am wondering what pH that brew might be spewing forth at..

Thanks,
Kevin

There are some leaking gas wells that are discharging acidic drainage similar to acid mine drainage. There are people working on capping these. Call the ANF office or DEP or PFBC and tell them the location.

 

[osprey]

It looks to me like something we have in a small area in Bedford county called "Sulpher Springs" it is a natural occurence , the smell is like that of rotton eggs , sulpher , the color of the silt seeping out from behind the rock looks almost exactly like the ones in Bedford , but just in case i'd let the Feds know about it , 'cause it could be something else.