PFBC survey data and application of findings

sixfootfenwick

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Lets call a stream in the scenario X.

When stream X gets surveyed and it is found to have a biomass above Class A level, but has stocked fish, are the stocked fish counted in the kg/ha?
 
Any chance of bucket biologists?
It's rampent in a few creeks around my camp.
I don't know, I know nothing about the creek X other than what I'm seeing on the data.
It was last surveyed on August 22'

At that time it had 3 -10" , 2- 11", 2 -12" , and 1 -13" brookies in that stream at least in 800 meters.

That seems unusual, but I would expect the PFBC biologist to be able to tell stocked fish from wild fish for the most part. So if they don't count that as data, then it seems like this stream gets a decent influx of larger wild brook trout in the summer, possibly from downstream larger watershed sources, it is also fairly long, has little brown trout influence in it, has excellent physical habitat or private land with little pressure. It would be nice to know why.
 
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I don't know, I know nothing about the creek X other than what I'm seeing on the data.
It was last surveyed on August 22'

At that time it had 3 -10" , 2- 11", 2 -12" , and 1 -13" brookies in that stream at least in 800 meters.

That seems unusual, but I would expect the PFBC biologist to be able to tell stocked fish from wild fish for the most part. So if they don't count that as data, then it seems like this stream gets a decent influx of larger brook trout in the summer, possibly from downstream larger watershed sources, has excellent physical habitat and private land with little pressure.
I read your post too fast...in my head you caught these fish and then was curious comparing it to the data.
 
I think that the biologists performing the survey would be able to readily distinguish between stockie brookies and wild fish, regardless of their hatcher origin. I could be mistaken, though.
 
Given the additional info that it was a recent survey, I would be confident in PFBC staff excluding stocked brook trout. They are typically very easy to tell imo.

My personal angling experience in the larger watershed also supports the evidence found.
 
If you had said how many 6”, 7”, 8”, and 9” ST there were that may have helped in evaluating the situation to see if there is a logical, gradual reduction in each length group

By August the number of stocked ST remaining is usually pretty darn low to none, so the numerical data as presented could indicate stocked or wild.

As for telling stocked ST from wild ST, especially by August, I had occasionally seen some privately raised ST that provided a challenge in determining in the field whether they were stocked or wild. They didn’t have the fin wear that they did from other hatcheries, for example, and their color was not that of an obvious hatchery ST.
 
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I think that the biologists performing the survey would be able to readily distinguish between stockie brookies and wild fish, regardless of their hatcher origin. I could be mistaken, though.
That's what I was thinking myself.

It is interesting to say the least.
 
I cropped out the stream name and county for obvious reasons.
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Given the additional info that it was a recent survey, I would be confident in PFBC staff excluding stocked brook trout. They are typically very easy to tell imo.

My personal angling experience in the larger watershed also supports the evidence found.
So you are saying you have experience with stream X or it's receiving stream in question?

If that is the case and based off what you said, then these are thermal refugee fish from the larger watershed correct?
 
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Interesting that the farther upstream you go, the less smaller fish there are even if you attempt a close approximation to normalizing the data by multiplying the upper site’s inch group by inch group data by 2.25. Do the multiplication and you’ll find that the population is much smaller, but on the other hand the large fish are much more abundant. (The upper site has a very goo number of big ST for 230 m). This lower density of most or all other length groups once data are normalized suggests that the stream is warmer farther upstream or substrate is worse or both. Another suggestion is that with the lower density of fish upstream, the potential for more larger fish is increased as long as the physical habitat and temps can support them. If the larger fish were stocked fish at the upper site, this too would make sense because they may have been stocked in somewhat marginal habitat and stayed. The numbers of other size fish at the upper site do not suggest that the site would be attractive for larger ST to move from a receiving water 2.78 mi upstream from some form of better habitat/temp to an area that appears to be worse. If the larger fish are wild, my bet, although I could lose, would be that they are residents. If this sounds like I’m equivocating, what do you want from me?🤣…..I wasn’t on the survey and I have incomplete data, such as no info on the watershed and no site physical/chemical data.
Note: If I made any glaring errors above, note that I’ll accept them since I blew through the data and thought process pretty quickly since info was limited. If you’re graciously or critically wondering on the other hand how I could get all of that out of such limited data, chalk it up to 42 yrs of exposure to various conditions and population characteristics when doing surveys and in completing analyses thereof.
Bottom line: I’d fish it.
 
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Interesting that the farther upstream you go, the less smaller fish there are even if you attempt a close approximation to normalizing the data by multiplying the upper site’s inch group by inch group data by 2.25. Do the multiplication and you’ll find that the population is much smaller, but on the other hand the large fish are more abundant. This suggests that the stream is warmer farther upstream or substrate is worse or both. Another suggestion is that with the lower density of fish upstream, the potential for more larger fish is increased as long as the physical habitat and temps can support them. If the larger fish were stocked fish at the upper site, this too would make sense because they may have been stocked in somewhat marginal habitat and stayed. The numbers of other size fish at the upper site do not suggest that the site would be attractive for larger ST to move from a receiving water 2.78 mi upstream from some form of better habitat/temp to an area that appears to be worse.
all of what you said makes sense to me except the fish being stocked as a possiblity in the upper site.

The kg/ha criterion of class A puts it right on the borderline and if they counted stocked fish then it truly doesn't meet the criteria and I hope biologists can tell the difference.

It seems to me a lot of fish move into this watershed from the receiving stream, find what they need and mostly stay put there. Which would account for the population mostly being on the lower end, but what you said about larger individuals not moving past that makes sense too.

It looks like it picks up quite a few tributaries in the upstream section. I wonder if it was sampled above those in the upstream section.
 
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Interesting that the farther upstream you go, the less smaller fish there are even if you attempt a close approximation to normalizing the data by multiplying the upper site’s inch group by inch group data by 2.25. Do the multiplication and you’ll find that the population is much smaller, but on the other hand the large fish are much more abundant. (The upper site has a very goo number of big ST for 230 m). This lower density of most or all other length groups once data are normalized suggests that the stream is warmer farther upstream or substrate is worse or both. Another suggestion is that with the lower density of fish upstream, the potential for more larger fish is increased as long as the physical habitat and temps can support them. If the larger fish were stocked fish at the upper site, this too would make sense because they may have been stocked in somewhat marginal habitat and stayed. The numbers of other size fish at the upper site do not suggest that the site would be attractive for larger ST to move from a receiving water 2.78 mi upstream from some form of better habitat/temp to an area that appears to be worse. If the larger fish are wild, my bet, although I could lose, would be that they are residents. If this sounds like I’m equivocating, what do you want from me?🤣…..I wasn’t on the survey and I have incomplete data, such as no info on the watershed and no site physical/chemical data.
Note: If I made any glaring errors above, note that I’ll accept them since I blew through the data and thought process pretty quickly since info was limited.
I'm not holding anything against you at all Mike. We are all just pondering.

If they are resident fish, these seems like an unusual situation to me for a small freestone stream.

I'll send you the name and county, so if it interests you as a musing, you can look into it more.
 
It should be noted they found 5 or 6 rainbow trout. So there are some stocked trout but I don't see this stream on any stocking list. I think those also came from the receiving stream.
 
I only mentioned stocked fish in order to cover all bases since Sixfoot and Dude brought up stockies. Without those questions I was quite willing to accept the data collected as being entirely from wild fish. After all, I wasn’t on the survey.
 
So you are saying you have experience with stream X or it's receiving stream in question?

If that is the case and based off what you said, then these are thermal refugee fish from the larger watershed correct?
You should fish and find out. I am sure the fish move around, but the stream in question, the receiving stream and nearby tribs are all well worth fishing.
 
You should fish and find out. I am sure the fish move around, but the stream in question, the receiving stream and nearby tribs are all well worth fishing.
Well I've fished the receiving stream and many of the neighboring streams, just not this one in question.

My pondering isn't to see if it is worth fishing at this point, I'm sure it is, most streams are even with low densities of trout.

My question was do you think these are thermal refugia fish?
 
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