PA rule clarification - approved waters or whatever they are now called

[Nymph-wristed]

I tend to stay clear of approved trout waters after March 1st, unless they have a special regs section that is open. This question came from a buddy targeting the "Trust" section on the Pennypack. Since that falls under no apparent regs, but is upstream of a stocked section (miles of it, in fact) how do you interpret the rule. Does upstream or downstream matter? What about tribs? Could I fish Walt's, for example, even though Martin's is closed now?

Thanks for any insight. It is a beyotch trying to cross reference the different rules. To compound things, he only asked because a park ranger told him he couldn't fish that stretch and he made a convincing argument that he could, but who's right???

 

[HopBack]

This has recently been discussed extensively and a quick search should turn up the thread. I believe they did motify the language this year so that all stocked trout waters are closed (upstream or downstream) until opening day.

 

[Nymph-wristed]

Thank you HopBack. I will see what turns up.

 

[HopBack]

Never mind... The link for the limits for SE region stocked waters can be found here

 

[Nymph-wristed]

Yeah, that previous thread posed as many questions as answers...

Thanks. I think he's okay where he's fishing because it's a stream whose upper and lower limits are listed and it's all C&R there.

 

[FLY_Mike]

I recently called the PFBC on this very question and what HopBack states is essentially correct. If it is listed in the manual it is closed until trout season unless it has special regs stating so, all this is found in the manual for your area.

 

[steveo27]

I emailed the PFBC back when the last thread popped up and this was the response I got -

Fishing on “stocked trout waters” , also referred to as Approved Trout Waters”,does close each season to facilitate the stocking prior to Opening Day. It is illegal to fish, or be in possession of fishing gear, on these waters from 12:01 AM March 1 to 8 A.M Opening Day.

Approved Trout Waters are defined as “designated waters that contain significant portions that are open to public fishing and are stocked with trout. A list of Approved Trout Waters is printed in the Annual Summary of Fishing Regulations and also available online : http://fishinpa.com/



It is important to understand there is a distinction between Approved Trout Water limits and Stocking Sections. Stocking Section are PFBC designation used for the purpose of stocking and fisheries management and are not legal boundaries for the purpose of determining Approved Trout Water limits. In many cases larger waterways may have several Stocking Sections, some of which may be separated by undesignated areas, but the entire waterway will be considered Approved Trout Waters. In this situation it would be illegal to fish the area not covered by a Stocking Section, even if not stocked.

In determining whether a particular a specific section of water is open to fishing during this closed season you must refer to the Approved Trout Waters List . If the waterway has upper or lower limits for Approved Trout Water regulations it will list these limits, otherwise it will simply list the waterway. In the latter circumstance the entire waterway is Approved Trout Waters and thus closed.

 

[Nymph-wristed]

steveo27 wrote:
I emailed the PFBC back when the last thread popped up and this was the response I got -

Fishing on “stocked trout waters” , also referred to as Approved Trout Waters”,does close each season to facilitate the stocking prior to Opening Day. It is illegal to fish, or be in possession of fishing gear, on these waters from 12:01 AM March 1 to 8 A.M Opening Day.

Approved Trout Waters are defined as “designated waters that contain significant portions that are open to public fishing and are stocked with trout. A list of Approved Trout Waters is printed in the Annual Summary of Fishing Regulations and also available online : http://fishinpa.com/



It is important to understand there is a distinction between Approved Trout Water limits and Stocking Sections. Stocking Section are PFBC designation used for the purpose of stocking and fisheries management and are not legal boundaries for the purpose of determining Approved Trout Water limits. In many cases larger waterways may have several Stocking Sections, some of which may be separated by undesignated areas, but the entire waterway will be considered Approved Trout Waters. In this situation it would be illegal to fish the area not covered by a Stocking Section, even if not stocked.

In determining whether a particular a specific section of water is open to fishing during this closed season you must refer to the Approved Trout Waters List . If the waterway has upper or lower limits for Approved Trout Water regulations it will list these limits, otherwise it will simply list the waterway. In the latter circumstance the entire waterway is Approved Trout Waters and thus closed.

Roger that. That's how I have always read it and how I tried to explain to my friend. The stocking sections are numbered but the information in parentheses following the name of the ATW in the county list describes the limits of the ATW. In his case he's fishing a section of the creek in a county for which it is not even named as an ATW (or class A, B, C...).

 

[tomitrout]

It is illegal to fish, or be in possession of fishing gear, on these waters from 12:01 AM March 1 to 8 A.M Opening Day

So, I guess technically we all best stay in our trucks until 8am on opening day, cuz if you're standing streamside at 7:55 with a fishin' pole waiting for the buzzer, you're in violation...

Looks like an easy money maker for the ticket writers. ;-)

 

[Swattie87]

tomitrout wrote:

It is illegal to fish, or be in possession of fishing gear, on these waters from 12:01 AM March 1 to 8 A.M Opening Day

So, I guess technically we all best stay in our trucks until 8am on opening day, cuz if you're standing streamside at 7:55 with a fishin' pole waiting for the buzzer, you're in violation...

Looks like an easy money maker for the ticket writers. ;-)

I drive a Mini Cooper now. See Cabin Fever thread.

 

[Dave_W]

Here's the recent thread where we chewed on this tiresome annual topic.

Trout Fishing During Closed Season

 

[Chaz]

The Simple answer is to not fish any stocked waters unless they are special regs waters.
You cannot keep the trout anyway.

 

[Bamboozle]

If the Trust section you are referring to is up in Huntington Valley, that is open to fishing with NO harvest if there are no other restrictions put in place by the Trust. Your friend is right and the ranger is wrong.

It really ain't hard to figure out...

Look at the Summary Listings for Montgomery & Philadelphia County. Pennypack Creek is closed in Montgomery County in Lorimer Park and that's it. Downstream from there from the Philadelphia County line to Frankford Avenue in Philadelphia County it is also closed which means you could fish it by Holmesburg Prison if you were so inclined.

That is the ONLY Approved Trout sections of the stream in any county through which it flows, the rest is open with no harvest.

There also is NO provision in the law for areas UPSTREAM of Approved Trout, only downstream and that is for the purpose restricting harvest during the Extended Season, not now.

Once again the ONLY way to know is to look at the Summary listings by county and see how and if a stream is listed in the county where you intend to fish. That IS the basis for what is Approved Trout, not sections on stocking lists or arbitrary assumptions that all streams that are stocked are closed everywhere.

And with no disrespect intended, not all WCO's or park rangers actually know every nuance of every rule/law/reg. I have been misinformed more than once by a WCO or ranger who was later corrected by a superior on a matter I was positive about. That includes being told I could put a motor on a float tube, being told I couldn't use a float tube on a Fish Commission lake and more than a few Closed Period encounters on streams I knew were open.

If you want to stay home until Opening Day that is fine but this discussion every year because folks can't comprehend what is Approved Trout water is beyond ridiculous. If I was your friend, I would call whomever has authority over that ranger and politely explain why he was wrong or have the Montco WCO call him.

It's bad enough when fishermen don't understand the rules and misinform but when enforcement gives incorrect information it confuses the matter even more.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

What is funny is the notion of not adding and removing special reg waters to simplify the regs, then omit key factors in the summary book that over complicate the regs. :roll:

 

[Nymph-wristed]

Bamboozle wrote:
If the Trust section you are referring to is up in Huntington Valley, that is open to fishing with NO harvest if there are no other restrictions put in place by the Trust. Your friend is right and the ranger is wrong.

It really ain't hard to figure out...

Look at the Summary Listings for Montgomery & Philadelphia County. Pennypack Creek is closed in Montgomery County in Lorimer Park and that's it. Downstream from there from the Philadelphia County line to Frankford Avenue in Philadelphia County it is also closed which means you could fish it by Holmesburg Prison if you were so inclined.

That is the ONLY Approved Trout sections of the stream in any county through which it flows, the rest is open with no harvest.

There also is NO provision in the law for areas UPSTREAM of Approved Trout, only downstream and that is for the purpose restricting harvest during the Extended Season, not now.

Once again the ONLY way to know is to look at the Summary listings by county and see how and if a stream is listed in the county where you intend to fish. That IS the basis for what is Approved Trout, not sections on stocking lists or arbitrary assumptions that all streams that are stocked are closed everywhere.

And with no disrespect intended, not all WCO's or park rangers actually know every nuance of every rule/law/reg. I have been misinformed more than once by a WCO or ranger who was later corrected by a superior on a matter I was positive about. That includes being told I could put a motor on a float tube, being told I couldn't use a float tube on a Fish Commission lake and more than a few Closed Period encounters on streams I knew were open.

If you want to stay home until Opening Day that is fine but this discussion every year because folks can't comprehend what is Approved Trout water is beyond ridiculous. If I was your friend, I would call whomever has authority over that ranger and politely explain why he was wrong or have the Montco WCO call him.

It's bad enough when fishermen don't understand the rules and misinform but when enforcement gives incorrect information it confuses the matter even more.

Well put, Bamboozle. That is exactly how I interpreted it. Thanks for the clarifications everyone.

 

[Cold]

To be fair, I'm not easily confused by regulations...I navigate taxes and healthcare without needing any assistance or interpretation...but the way the PFBC does its trout rules seems to be constructed in such a way as to be intentionally confusing, vague, and opaque.

It's bad enough that the average angler can be easily confused by all the regulations, conditions, exceptions, and stipulations, but the fact that the enforcers of those very laws are also often mistaken is, to me, a clear sign that they need to be simplified.

For waters of non-regulated designation, every type of special reg, and the waters up and down stream of those sections, make a simple chart that follows each one over the calendar year showing how things change on each one.

 

[pcray1231]

They need to do away with the extended season to simplify it. Then you have:

List of approved trout waters.
List of special regulation waters.

If on special regulation waters list - follow special regulation.

If on approved trout water list - open from opening day through the end of February, closed in March.

Unlisted- Open from opening day through labor day under general regs, then from labor day to opening day they become all-tackle C&R.

End of story. Easy to follow. No confusion. No "what if it's downstream of an approved trout water?" No "it's not on any list but can I fish FOR trout?" No "ok, I can C&R, but what if I accidently harm a fish?"

 

[Cold]

That'd be even more simple, and preferable, but even without changing rules, they could to more to make the regs more transparent.

Law-abiding anglers shouldn't have to either wonder if they're legal or stay home because they're not sure.

 

[Bamboozle]

Try comprehending building, fire or electrical codes if you want to get confused...

Code books like the Summary Booklet and the other information out there on the PFBC website need to be read MANY, MANY times and to be put into context to fully understand all of the nuances of the regulations and how they apply to the dynamic situations that come up. It's the nature of the beast called regulations.

Unfortunately, most anglers don't read the Summary Booklet at all or only read it until they find the first thing that verifies what they believe or a rumor they heard on a fishing website. Add to that, not all writers do a particularly good job of explaining things and all of a sudden…

…you have the annual PAFF "Can I Fish After March 1" thread.

However, I blame the angler more than the PFBC. I have confronted guys openly fishing during the Closed Period at Approved Trout streams with BIG signs that read: “NO FISHING”. When I explain to them that they are NOT supposed to be fishing there until Opening Day, they say that because they are “throwing them back” they thought it was OK.

Hey Beevis, what don’t you understand about a sign that says NO FISHING??

The reality is most anglers could care less about becoming an “expert” on regulations, which is kind of sad since to me that is part of the conservation aspect of fishing, hunting & camping. In my perfect world, a fishing license would be as difficult to obtain as it is in many European countries with testing on laws and biology as part of the process.

Pay attention to this idea PFBC:

Since I know that will never happen the next best thing would be if the PFBC in conjunction with fishing clubs would hold seminars in January or February on REGULATIONS with a written test & prizes. The test would include questions about the legality of fishing specific Approved Trout streams after March 1 in the seminar region with discussion on the laws and the reasoning behind the correct answers. I honestly think it would be popular and would go a long way in helping folks to understand the regulations, which means more folks ON the water who know the rules and that can only be a good thing. Heck, they could even award some kind of "proficiency" pin to folks that take the test.

Bottom line…nothing has really changed in regards to the Closed Period rules in all the years I have made a point to fish year round. When I made that bold decision, I studied long and hard and made sure I was right before venturing out. I have been harassed by anglers, WCO’s and rangers alike but without being a total @$$#0!= I have stood my ground and politely explained my understanding of the regulations. When that doesn’t work, I leave.

Later I contact the PFBC Law Enforcement Division and DCNR or the PFGC when it is their officers who were misinformed with copies of the regulations and email correspondence on the subject I have sent over the years to the PFBC. I am proud to say I have been 100% successful in explaining the error of their ways to them and have ALWAYS received apologies. The next time I go to that spot, I make a point to contact law enforcement and tell them I am back and to stop by to say hello.