Overlining or under?

[pcray1231]

If that's the case then, then why not buy a slower glass or cane rod that will work for you with only 10-20' feet out the tip in the first place and still have enough backbone to reach out 40-50' if asked?

A lot of what I do sounds almost the same as Swattie. And the answer to this is because you need high line speed and tight loops in tight places. You're casting under low hanging limbs and rhodo. Big open loops just aren't an option much of the time.

So you want high line speeds with very short distances of line off the tip. That's not a real easy combination to achieve. But short distances of heavy line weights combined with fast rods seem to do it for me.

Further, all of the specialty casts. Bow and arrow, modified rolls, etc. Stiffer rods do it better.

There ain't very many rods designed to do that. Most of the short rods have gone the way of the 2 and 3 weights. For these situations, where delicacy isn't of any concern whatsoever, I fail to see the advantage.

 

[jayL]

Because there isn't one. Light rods are fun, but are far from optimal for tight spaces.

 

[GreenWeenie]

This is an excerpt from Tom Morgan Rodsmiths Design Philosophy page on his website where he talks about rod design.

I've talked with hundreds of anglers about their rod preferences and, I've spent years thinking about rod design principles and talking with other knowledgeable rod designers about different actions. I've come to believe that there are three main rod actions: traditional "fast action" that has a stiff butt and a flexible tip, "slow action" with a stiff tip and flexible butt (or a rod that is overall too flexible for the line weight it is casting), and "progressive action" with a uniform increase in stiffness from tip to butt.

It is important to point out, I believe, that "fast action" has taken on a new meaning in recent years when applied to graphite rods. Most of today's rods have fast action, regardless of their bending pattern, because they are overall stiffer than rods of previous eras. In other words, most of the contemporary rods would have been rated to cast lines one or two sizes heavier in years past. Many of today's anglers started using these stiff, fast rods, not even realizing that there are different designs that may be better suited for their trout angling situations. In my opinion, many anglers of today's generation have never learned the joys of fishing with truly great rods that bend and flex as they should and thereby communicating back to the angler how the rod, line, leader, and fly are performing.

How rods bend under a load and how the stored energy flows through the rod as it unloads in a cast is what we consider to be rod action. Great rod action is one of those things in life that you know you like when you feel it, but it can be difficult to describe. However, from my experience, there are three attributes in rod design most prized by knowledgeable and accomplished anglers, regardless of the rod material. The first is smoothness of action. This means the rod loads and unloads when casting in a uniform manner from tip to butt without any "kicks" or "hinges". I have chosen the progressive action with a good balance between the tip and butt for all of my rods that provides this smooth action. This is what makes a rod feel sweet when you cast it. For graphite rods, another important aspect of this smoothness of feel is the ferrule design. My rods have a continuous taper from tip to butt with a sleeve ferrule designed into the tip. Many of today's graphite rods have a thin-walled tip that fits over a smaller diameter, thick-walled butt. Although this ferrule design allows for good production efficiency, it doesn't let the rod transmit the flow of energy in a smooth and continuous manner.

The second attribute is that the rod has the right amount of bend for its rated line size. Remember my previous observation that most rods today are too stiff or fast for their rated line size. It is extremely important for a rod to bend sufficiently to communicate to the angler how the line is behaving during casting. If it doesn't, the angler won't have the feel needed to make the accurate and delicate casts necessary to obtain a high level of angling proficiency. I have carefully designed these rods to have the correct stiffness for good feel and yet have sufficient power for a wide range of casting distances. Under normal circumstances, my rods won't cast a line one size heavier than they are rated to cast.

The third attribute in designing a rod is correct tip stiffness for each line size. This has always been easy to achieve with bamboo rods because the power fibers are on the outside and the strips are tapered from the inside, but, until fairly recently, it has been difficult to do with graphite. Now graphite blank-making technology has become very sophisticated, and it allows me to design very small diameter tips. These small diameter tips have the suppleness needed to form loops correctly while casting. They also protect tippets when setting a hook and playing fish. This is very important, as anglers tend to use lighter tippets and smaller flies to fool wary fish on many of the heavily fished waters.

 

[tomitrout]

pcray:

That's not a real easy combination to achieve.

Yeah, doesn't sound like it is for you with the gear choices you've made and your casting style. Fast rods aren't needed for tight loops, slower rods do not automatically mean only open loops. I find it odd that you're using, say a fastish 4wt, but then you need to 'slow it down' with a 5 or 6wt line to achieve your goal of tight loops. You need the fast rod, but yet you're slowing it down to get it to work for you? Why does that sound backwards when you could just get a slower paced rod to begin with? Curious how well that overlined rod handles the 5 or 6wt lines once you get more than 30-40' in the air?

Personally, I'd rather just get the rod that's been designed for the task I'd like it for and matches my casting style...then I know it'll work in close and that it'll also handle further distances without having to worry about changing lines from one day to the next.


And just to add, no beef with you pcray and your preferences, to each his own, it's just that this constantly perpetuated marketing myth that you need a fast rod for tight loops gets old...

 

[GreenWeenie]

I think the issue/myth with tight loops and fast action rods has more to do with the fact that most fly casters overpower/muscle the rod to compensate for poor timing in order to keep the line in the air and fast action rods are more forgiving and better able to handle overpowering than medium or slow action rods.

Loop tightness or openness has nothing to do with the action of the rod but rather casting mechanics, good timing, and stopping the tip abruptly and not letting it drift all over the place on the release, which is what causes open loops whether intentional or unintentional, and most casters are also guilty of unintentional tip drift.

So if you take a slow or medium action rod and overpower it, you are causing the rod tip to deflect/bend too much and couple that with tip drift on the release and your tip is essentially out of control and you have no control over what your line is doing so it is easy to see why the myth exists that slow/medium action rods are not able to cast tight loops. It's not that they can't it's just that fast action rods compensate for less than ideal casting technique much better than slow or medium action rods.

Up to distances of about 45 feet I can cast tight or open loops equally well with my 9’ 5wt medium action rod, my 9’ 6wt fast action rod and my 7.5’ 4/5wt “fast action” boo rod, that most people would say is slow action, yet each requires different timing. Now at distances greater than 45 feet, maintaining a tight loop on the 5wt medium action and 7.5’ boo rod starts to become difficult simply because neither of these rods were designed to handle that much line in the air.

 

[PennKev]

pcray1231 wrote:


Now, use 5 wt line for all of those distances, and NOW you're rod speed changes with distance. Throw 60 ft of line with a 5 wt on a rod weighted for a 5 wt, and suddenly you got yourself a SLOW rod. It's overloaded.

Not quite.

I suspect you're are saying the rod slows in action becauase you start to see flex in the butt section. However, This does not make it a slower rod as with the increased load, deflection in the tip area is also increasing dramatically and will do as you continue to add load. Eventually, the casting characteristics of the rod will feel very unpleasant. In fact, this is what is sometimes described as the tip "collapsing" or similiar terms. But the result is not a change in action, but simply more dramatic deflection.

Kev

 

[pcray1231]

Curious how well that overlined rod handles the 5 or 6wt lines once you get more than 30-40' in the air?

Keep in mind that the rod in question is a specialist rod, I certainly don't do that with all my rods. I use it ONLY for tight brookie streams. It will NEVER have more than 20' in the air. And most of it's time will be spent with roughly 10' of actual fly line (not including leader) in the air.

Personally, I'd rather just get the rod that's been designed for the task I'd like it for and matches my casting style...then I know it'll work in close and that it'll also handle further distances without having to worry about changing lines from one day to the next.

That paragraph is one big major contradiction. I DO use a rod thats designed for the task. But wanting a rod designed for a specific task (specialist), and wanting a rod that'll handle multiple tasks (jack of all trades) are competing desires. Jack of all trades means master of none.

I don't usually go from some deep woods thick brookie stream to a big wide open stream without at least stopping at the car in between, so having both in the car works just fine.

And regarding poor casting mechanics, in tight places, you almost never have good mechanics. You often can't even do a full swing of the rod, it's often half casts and push casts and the like, where you want to get as much power in the line as you can with as short a stroke as you can. If you CAN do a full swing, then ANY rod with ANY line will do you just fine to cast short distances. I target my gear to better do the hard things, not the easy ones.

 

[bikerfish]

tomitrout wrote:
If that's the case then, then why not buy a slower glass or cane rod that will work for you with only 10-20' feet out the tip in the first place and still have enough backbone to reach out 40-50' if asked? They do make 'em...

Thinking the exact same thing!

 

[pcray1231]

PennKev,

Yeah, you are correct. Nevertheless, we all have a distance where the cast falls apart. That distance is indeed shorter with a heavier line. You don't overline a rod if you're even going to approach that point.

 

[GreenWeenie]

As PennKev states, rod action is rod action irrespective of line weight. Action is how the rod flexes or bends as the load increases and increasing line weight doesn’t change how it flexes or bends it only increases the load per foot of line. Assuming 15 feet or 5wt line weighs the same as 25 feet of 4wt line, the rod doesn’t know the difference between the two (same load is in the air) and how it flexes will be identical with either line. So I do think it is incorrect to say overlining causes a fast action rod to slow down, it doesn’t, it simply causes the rod to flex more per foot of line and more flex will translate to better feel, within reason.

Pcray, I think the statement you made that is a bit confusing or contradictory is you are saying you like or need a fast action rod to accomplish the kinds of short casts you need in tight quarters but then say you like to overline it to “slow” the rod action down (a better term would be to cause the tip to flex more). I think Tomi’s comment is if you are overlining the rod to “force” the tip to flex more, why not just get a rod with a more flexible tip and use the correct line.

 

[JackM]

I read enough posts to realize I'm not real interested in defining a right or wrong. But people saying that overlining does not make a rod "softer" (or underlining does not make "faster") are telling only a half truth.

Rod flex and action cannot be separated from line weight differences in the way a rod reacts and flexes. Give me any weight line and any weight rod, and I bet I can throw a cast that is servicable, regardless of the combination. The key is that a certain weight of line and rod and rod action will require a certain casting stroke in order to cast a particular distance, under any given set of particular circumstances. If you are using too much effort to make necessary adjustments to cast your combo effectively in the situation you are in, then you have "improperly" lined your rod, period.

I regularly use a soft 5 weight to cast a three weight line. I like the feel of that sometimes as much as my faster 3 weight with the same line.

 

[tomitrout]

That paragraph is one big major contradiction. I DO use a rod thats designed for the task. But wanting a rod designed for a specific task (specialist), and wanting a rod that'll handle multiple tasks (jack of all trades) are competing desires. Jack of all trades means master of none.

Nope, sorry, gotta disagree with you here. Firstly, because if you're overlining a rod to make it 'work', then no, that rod is most definitely not designed for the task at hand. You shouldn't have to load a 4wt with a 6 to make it work. If so, then you've got the wrong tool in your hand and that rod is most definitely not designed for the task, otherwise it would be labeled and sold as a 6wt. Either that or you're saying that you know more about rod design and intent than the guys who are actually doing the design and manufacturing and they've mislabeled their entire line...

Having a 'specialist' rod to me doesn't mean one that's not suited for casting beyond 20'. I don't see a rod that's able to comfortably present a fly in the 5-40' range a 'master of none.' Personally, if I come to one of those larger hidden pools on a brookie stream, I'd much prefer to be able to comfortably stand from afar and make the cast I need up to the head than have to crawl into position and go thru a bunch of contortions because I wasn't expecting to have to make a 'long' cast, or run back to the car for my other rig.

I have a few 'specialist' small stream rods, a one piece 5'er, a sweet little 6'/3wt and a few in the 7' range in 2, 3 and 4wt's, all cane and they all easily cover the need to throw a tight loop in close with the flick of a wrist, or reach out to 40ish feet if needed. Will they bang out 60+ on Penn's or the Little J, will I fish 'em on the Letort where I might tangle with something truly trophy sized? No, I have other more 'all around' type rods for that....but even those rods will perform relatively well in close if asked.

I guess I just have a thing for respecting the rod designer's intent. If he designs a taper for a 4wt and specs it as such, then I'll try it with a 4wt to see if it agrees with me. If it does, great, and if it doesn't work at the distances I have in mind for it, then I'll look for another rod that will.

 

[Swattie87]

GreenWeenie wrote:
So I do think it is incorrect to say overlining causes a fast action rod to slow down, it doesn’t, it simply causes the rod to flex more per foot of line and more flex will translate to better feel, within reason.

I think this is the basic point I was trying to make. There is a difference between rod action (slow/mod/fast) and the load that is placed on a rod. A fast rod is still a fast rod, regardless of the load placed on it...just make a casting stroke with it with no line on it...watch how it bends and rebounds and compare that to a mod or slow rod.

The distinction that I think pcray and myself are trying to draw is that no matter what the action of the rod is, it will take a certain amount of line to load it with a given casting stroke. Even slower action rods were not necessarily designed to be loaded properly with 10 feet of line out. Knowing that, if a faster action rod (or whatever action) suits our casting style better, then it makes sense to add weight to the line to be able to load the rod to its designed specifications with less line out.

Tomi - I get what you're saying 100%. The instances where I have room to make a cast of say 20 or more feet on the Brookie streams I fish are few and far between though. Do they happen, sure, and would I probably be better off having 4 wt line on my rod for those, probably. But the infrequency with which they occur versus the shorter casts where I want the rod to load with less line out doesn't justify me using the 4wt. I'd rather adjust my casting stroke to compensate on the fewer long casts, than the infinitely more frequent short ones.

I don't claim to be a good caster...completely self taught, and unorthodox to some degree I'm sure...but hey it catches fish, and that's good enough for me. I'm not looking to win any casting distance contests or any style points. If a 5 wt line, on a 4 wt mod/fast is what works and feels the best for me and for the kind of fishing I like to do, that's what I'm gonna use...regardless of what the rod was "intended" to be lined with. I'm sure the rod manufacturer is happy I spent my money on their product either way.

In short, I don't think a slower action rod necessarily loads to its designed specifications with any less line out than a mod or fast rod. All depends on the individual rod. For me the discussion isn't about rod action at all...it's simply about load. The fact that I like the feel and balance of a mod/fast versus a fast or a slow, or whatever is a separate discussion.

This is the epitome of different strokes, different folks, folks. ;-)

 

[afishinado]

JackM wrote:
I read enough posts to realize I'm not real interested in defining a right or wrong. But people saying that overlining does not make a rod "softer" (or underlining does not make "faster") are telling only a half truth.

Rod flex and action cannot be separated from line weight differences in the way a rod reacts and flexes. Give me any weight line and any weight rod, and I bet I can throw a cast that is servicable, regardless of the combination. The key is that a certain weight of line and rod and rod action will require a certain casting stroke in order to cast a particular distance, under any given set of particular circumstances. If you are using too much effort to make necessary adjustments to cast your combo effectively in the situation you are in, then you have "improperly" lined your rod, period.

I regularly use a soft 5 weight to cast a three weight line. I like the feel of that sometimes as much as my faster 5 weight with the same line.

I agree with Jack 100%! Best post in this thread. Ready to throw away your Hack license Jack? ;-)

I’m getting lazy so I copied and pasted my posts from a past thread on this subject instead of rewriting it:


Here's my take. A 4wt rod is built by the rodmaker to cast a 4wt line which weighs (the line) 120gr @ 30' (30' is the standard measurement used weigh the line and rate it - not necessarily the optimum casting amount of line!). With that being said, 30' of 4wt line is roughly equivalent in weight to 25' of 5wt line (which weighs 140gr @ 30'). If you are making a lot of shorter casts on a smaller stream, you may find a 5wt line works better for you to load the rod and cast well.

Now, given the same set-up, if you are casting 30 or more feet of line (remember that's 30' of fly line, add in the length of the leader/and and the length of the rod and your close to a 50' cast) on your 4 wt rod, the 5wt line may be a little heavy for that purpose and not cast very well. It really depends on the rod.

For real long distance casting some may even chose to underline the rod to achieve distance.

With some rods or in some situations under or overlining works best.

The long and short - give it a try and see how it casts.

I hate most fast action rods...but I'm a fast action afishinado!?! Most FA rods suck (especially the cheaper ones) and are only suitable for longer casts or tomato stakes. Pick up a rod and peel off a length of fly line equal to the length of the rod and cast it. Keep casting and lengthening the line until you get out at least to the running line. If the rod doesn't cast well at all those distances, put it back in the rack.

Anyway, rod choice (and action) is a personal choice but many guys think fast-action rods suck because they never cast one that was designed well using high modulus graphite, or they just don't really like faster rods. Each to his own.

I will say there are many more choices of decent medium action rods out there if you prefer that type of action.

No doubt many of us have casting "issues"....lol. Proper casting technique is a prerequisite choosing the right rod. I agree that poor casting form causes many FFers to overline or underline a rod to compensate. Also, your rod preference may change after you develop or change your casting stroke and become more proficient.

The other side of the coin is many of the rods built today, especially the faster ones are often underrated. The CCS ratings used by rod builders bear this out. In other words a 4wt is really more like a 5wt. BTW, I'm talking "power" not action. Back in the day, most rods were had multiple ratings like 4/5 or 5/6. Rod mfgs should go back to those type of ratings IMO.

Think messing around with different fly lines and line weights is like tuning a bow using this arrow or that arrow, or this fletching or that fletching until you dial in the right combo to make your arrows fly well.

Most times I use the recommended line weight, but I do have rods that cast better for me over or underlined. Don't let the number on the rod stop you from messing with it. That dog rod in the closet my end up being you pet stick with some tweaking.....but don't expect miracles....lol

BTW, I agree with Pcray on the overlining of rods for small stream/short cast fishing. If you cast a fly with a lot of weight or a larger wind resistant fly on a short line, the heavier line is a great help to propel you line / fly to it's intended target Also, he made the point that many times you cannot get a proper or full backcast in tight quarters, and the heavier line helps in that case too.

Hey....just put a little tape over the line weight label on your rod and have fun!;-)

 

[delta_dog]

I just aquired a 6'6 old glass rod that im gonna use for small streams and wasn't sure what weight the rod was so I went to Bass Pro today for a sale on Cortland line. At 9.99 a line I picked up 7 lines from 3-6wt WF,DT and sink tip for the price of one line. These lines are "Factory Seconds" ONLY because the colors aren't perfect not performance defects. Now im gonna cast a few different lines to see what casts the best in that 10-20ft range most offen found on smaller streams. Im gonna let the ROD tell me what it is not the MFG.

 

[Chaz]

My 9 ft 4 wt rod simply casts better with a 5 wt line, since I use it on big water and have plenty of room to cast and I want the line speed to make long casts when needed, I choos to use the 5 wt. line. Going to a different rod isn't the answer. The rod in question probably be rated for 5wt. lines.
I cannot speak for the others, but I cast a couple dozen rods before making a purchase, even trying them with different lines.
On my 4 wt 7'6" rod I use a 4 wt. line and it prforms great casting up to 60 ft with no trouble on small brookie streams.

 

[OldLefty]

Hmmm...

Some interesting stuff here.

 

[WildTigerTrout]

OldLefty wrote:
Hmmm...

Some interesting stuff here.

Hey! Do you have your leg elevated? You just get back to healing that leg. Don't make me come over there and twist your good one :lol: Hope your feeling better WTT

 

[afishinado]

OldLefty wrote:
Hmmm...

Some interesting stuff here.

Not fair, Dave! Teaser post!

I'm sure everyone would love to here your take.

 

[troutbert]

I have a Redington 7 1/2 foot 4 wt that I use for small stream fishing, that has a "moderate" action, i.e. you can feel it flex on short casts.

If anyone has a Sage or Loomis, etc. 7 1/2 or 8 foot 4 wt they think is "too fast" action, let me know and maybe we can work out a trade.

I think much of this is about preference. Some people prefer a rod that has more flex, others prefer the "fast" action fly rods.