Our waters get too warm

[LetortAngler]

I’m not denying the science at all. I am just of the opinion that there are much worse environmental variables at play than the brown trout.

*From the Fish and Wildlife Service..

Conservation challenges~
“Brook trout populations depend on cold, clear, well-oxygenated water of high purity. As early as the late 19th century, native brook trout in North America disappeared from many streams as forests were cleared and land was developed. Streams and creeks that were polluted, dammed, or heavy with sediment often became too warm to host native brook trout.
In addition to chemical pollution and algae growth caused by fertilizer runoff, air pollution has been a significant factor in the disappearance of brook trout from their native habitats. In the U.S., acid rain caused by air pollution has resulted in pH levels too low to sustain brook trout in all but the highest headwaters of some Appalachian streams and creeks. Brook trout populations across large parts of eastern Canada have been similarly challenged. Today, in many parts of its historic range, efforts are underway to restore brook trout to waters that once held native populations.”

https://www.fws.gov/southeast/wildlife/fishes/brook-trout/

 

[silverfox]

LetortAngler wrote:
I’m not denying the science at all. I am just of the opinion that there are much worse environmental variables at play than the brown trout.

*From the Fish and Wildlife Service..

Conservation challenges~
“Brook trout populations depend on cold, clear, well-oxygenated water of high purity. As early as the late 19th century, native brook trout in North America disappeared from many streams as forests were cleared and land was developed. Streams and creeks that were polluted, dammed, or heavy with sediment often became too warm to host native brook trout.
In addition to chemical pollution and algae growth caused by fertilizer runoff, air pollution has been a significant factor in the disappearance of brook trout from their native habitats. In the U.S., acid rain caused by air pollution has resulted in pH levels too low to sustain brook trout in all but the highest headwaters of some Appalachian streams and creeks. Brook trout populations across large parts of eastern Canada have been similarly challenged. Today, in many parts of its historic range, efforts are underway to restore brook trout to waters that once held native populations.”

https://www.fws.gov/southeast/wildlife/fishes/brook-trout/

To be fair, it also says right above that;

Brook trout are increasingly confined to remote streams in higher elevations due to habitat loss and the introduction of brown and rainbow trout. As early as 1850 the range of the brook trout started to extend west through introductions. The brook trout was eventually introduced into suitable habitats throughout the western United States. The species has also been stocked on every continent except Antarctica. Although not all introductions were successful, a great many established wild, self sustaining populations of brook trout in non-native waters.

 

[moon1284]

I was under the impression that there were never brook trout in letort (or at least it was never as good of a brook trout fishery as it is now a brown trout fishery). Am I wrong?

 

[LetortAngler]

The Letort historically was a native Brook Trout fishery (Not as good and widely acclaimed as Big Spring was). The Browns were introduced in the late 1890s from a nearby stream and have been there ever since. Brook trout persisted for about 70 years until the stream became uninhabitable for them due to various environmental reasons - cattle, watercress farm, herbicide, pesticides, manure, and especially heavy sediment build up. The Browns didn’t help either.

 

[moon1284]

Not saying you're wrong but could you point me to some sources? I have only found one or two mentions of the letort as a brook trout fishery.

 

[LetortAngler]

Marinaro, Fox, and Shenk all wrote about Brook Trout in the upper Letort prior to the Browns being introduced. Whether they are in fact native there, I’m not 100%.
In Eds book Fly Rod Trouting he mentions them in his first chapter titled “The Early Days” which would be around the 1930s and 1940s. He writes “The Letorts sparkling clear runs and pools harbored the worlds most beautiful Brook Trout. Some of these Brookies were crowding 20 inches, although the largest I had ever landed did not quite reach 19 inches. I probably caught a bakers half dozen over 17” during the last decade of the Brook trout heyday”

I’ll have to revisit Fox’s books as I believe he goes into greater detail about this.

 

[troutbert]

LetortAngler wrote:
Marinaro, Fox, and Shenk all wrote about Brook Trout in the upper Letort prior to the Browns being introduced. Whether they are in fact native there, I’m not 100%.
In Eds book Fly Rod Trouting he mentions them in his first chapter titled “The Early Days” which would be around the 1930s and 1940s. He writes “The Letorts sparkling clear runs and pools harbored the worlds most beautiful Brook Trout. Some of these Brookies were crowding 20 inches, although the largest I had ever landed did not quite reach 19 inches. I probably caught a bakers half dozen over 17” during the last decade of the Brook trout heyday”

I’ll have to revisit Fox’s books as I believe he goes into greater detail about this.

Yes, these writers indicated that brook trout were there pretty far into the 1900s.

What would the brook trout population have been originally? The brown trout were introduced into the US widely in the 1880s. Before that, the streams held brook trout.

Regarding landscape disturbance, that valley was probably heavily farmed, and had wagon roads and mill dams, etc. by the mid-1700s.

We can imagine what the brook trout population would have been before those disturbances.

 

[k-bob]

Nice part of this letort discussion: even though the letort (I assume) has great pH and water temps to this day, we are discussing how other factors such as silt or sediment may have changed it.

Sure, it is a bit mind numbing to consider all the long run changes to a stream that now does have temp and pH issues, such as upper loyalsock, as well as channeling, sediment, mining inputs, hemlock damage, etc. Or it would be, I mostly just try to find what is there now and what can be done w what we have.

As for maintaining brookies, maybe it is just a few anecdotes, but I have seen some gnarly hemlock damage from active adelgids in lil headwaters streams round penns for example. Dont know how much can be done but canopy loss w hemlock invasive insect.

 

[troutbert]

Brown trout can spawn in the Letort. I don't see why brook trout would have any problem spawning.

There probably is some chance of establishing brook trout in the far headwaters near the springs.

In the Driftless Area limestone streams, many have brook trout right up in the headwaters, and the brown trout take over not very far downstream. And that is farm country, with a lot of fine sediment.

 

[silverfox]

k-bob wrote:
Nice part of this letort discussion: even though the letort (I assume) has great pH and water temps to this day, we are discussing how other factors such as silt or sediment may have changed it.

It is a bit mind numbing to consider all the long run changes to a stream that now does have temp and pH issues, such as upper loyalsock, as well as channeling, sediment, mining inputs, hemlock damage, etc. Or it would be, I mostly just try to find what is there now.

As for maintaining brookies, maybe it is just a few anecdotes, but I have seen some gnarly hemlock damage from active adelgids in lil headwaters streams round penns for example. Dont know how much can be done but canopy loss w hemlock invasive insect.

The Letort discussion is interesting but my original point was simply about water temperatures and maybe I shouldn't have named streams. A simpler way to say it might have been "our limestoners".

Shifting gears, but along the lines of limestone, I caught stocked brook trout in Yellow Creek last year in early August when some freestone streams were completely dewatered/dry. Apparently the species can survive there even with all the silt and other woes of limestone streams today.

You're 100% right about the Hemlocks. I saw some Hemlock woolly adelgid the other day up on a mountain stream. If we've relegated the brookies to the last strongholds of high mountain streams and given up on them everywhere else, I hope someone is thinking about what impact that might have down the road. I know Don Anderson mentioned this during the commissioner meeting.

 

[tabasco_joe]

k-bob wrote:
Nice part of this letort discussion: even though the letort (I assume) has great pH and water temps to this day, we are discussing how other factors such as silt or sediment may have changed it.

Sure, it is a bit mind numbing to consider all the long run changes to a stream that now does have temp and pH issues, such as upper loyalsock, as well as channeling, sediment, mining inputs, hemlock damage, etc. Or it would be, I mostly just try to find what is there now and what can be done w what we have.

As for maintaining brookies, maybe it is just a few anecdotes, but I have seen some gnarly hemlock damage from active adelgids in lil headwaters streams round penns for example. Dont know how much can be done but canopy loss w hemlock invasive insect.

I don't think the canopy impact will be as dramatic as one might think. Hardwoods will explode when the hemlocks thin. I've selectively logged groves of hemlocks on my land and the hardwoods quickly replaced them. Deer, grouse, and turkey also benefited in the area. A bit after the hardwoods some white pine is likely to start proliferating as well. Same is true of the Ash being lost.

 

[k-bob]

thanks hope that the consequences of the hemlock loss may sometimes be less than it appears. probably a bigger issue further south in pa, or in any stream where the water temps are near the edge for brook trout.

 

[troutbert]

tabasco_joe wrote:

k-bob wrote:
Nice part of this letort discussion: even though the letort (I assume) has great pH and water temps to this day, we are discussing how other factors such as silt or sediment may have changed it.

Sure, it is a bit mind numbing to consider all the long run changes to a stream that now does have temp and pH issues, such as upper loyalsock, as well as channeling, sediment, mining inputs, hemlock damage, etc. Or it would be, I mostly just try to find what is there now and what can be done w what we have.

As for maintaining brookies, maybe it is just a few anecdotes, but I have seen some gnarly hemlock damage from active adelgids in lil headwaters streams round penns for example. Dont know how much can be done but canopy loss w hemlock invasive insect.

I don't think the canopy impact will be as dramatic as one might think. Hardwoods will explode when the hemlocks thin. I've selectively logged groves of hemlocks on my land and the hardwoods quickly replaced them. Deer, grouse, and turkey also benefited in the area. A bit after the hardwoods some white pine is likely to start proliferating as well. Same is true of the Ash being lost.

Agreed. I think the hemlock damage will have less impact than some are predicting.

Take notice of the trees when fishing along brookie streams. The majority of trees along brookie streams are not hemlocks.

The hemlocks are found where certain conditions exist. But there are many other trees along the brookie streams including white pine and a large variety of hardwoods, and these provide shade too.

Where hemlocks die, other trees will come in and replace them.

Also, in some places where the hemlocks die and fall into the streams, they are creating good large woody debris habitat.

 

[Mike]

I fully agree with tabasco joe and troutbert regarding forest succession in what are now predominantly hemlock stands. I don’t have great concerns regarding loss of shade in those areas combined with the effects of climate change.

I commented to that effect regarding climate change and forest succession in Pa during the review period for the 2020-2024 modification of the Strategic Plan for Management of Trout in Pennsylvania and use every opportunity available to remind people with wild trout interests that that this round of climate change didn’t start this year. It has been ongoing, yet despite this in the warmest part of the state (SE Pa....Fisheries Management Area 6, which includes a good part of York Co) wild trout populations are expanding in downstream directions primarily due to increasing shade (maturation of riparian trees and shrubs, land use changes that have allowed streams bank vegetation to grow, etc). Additionally, one effect of climate change predicted for the mid-Atlantic states that could benefit wild trout is the expected increase in vegetation density and growth.