Opinions?

[Wildbrowntrout]

I downloaded the most recent list of wild trout streams in PA, and noticed many streams say that the trout are from "headwaters to mouth". How far up into the headwaters do you think the trout can go? I drive past the headwaters of sixpenny everyday, and I highly doubt there's fish in that little stretch. Just wondering if headwaters does mean all the way to the origin, or just a general point on the stream to start the wild trout limits?

 

[Shaner]

I have caught 17" fish in trickles as long as it has some holes. I'm talking creeks that aren't even a foot wide were they are flowing.

 

[PennKev]

You'd be surprised. Tiny trickles can easily support juvenile trout let alone adults. Granted, adult trout in this sort of habitat are usually pretty small, but all they really need is consistent cold water and cover.

 

[pcray1231]

Generally, "headwaters" means the spot where it stops being a year round flow and becomes intermittent.

Obviously that's not a well defined "spot", as some years are different than others, and streams can have flow even if it's not on the surface (some is underground). I've caught trout in intermittent streams before. And once or twice, even found evidence of underground trout.

We're often talking minnow sized fish in the extreme headwaters, though even in intermittent areas, the occasional big hole, with big fish, is possible.

As for sixpenny. If you are talking where it crosses Geigertown Rd. Yes, there are fish there. I can't say I've ever fished UP from Geigertown Rd there. But I have fished it from 345 up to Geigertown Rd and quit there. It gets pretty dinky after you get a few hundred yards up from the splash dam, so you kinda start skipping more water and only hitting the bigger holes. But there's fish in them.

 

[greenghost]

pcray1231 wrote:
Generally, "headwaters" means the spot where it stops being a year round flow and becomes intermittent.

PC, While that's certainly true in many freestone streams, headwaters can also refer to where a constant, year-round spring surfaces, as the case with limestoners and some freestoners.

 

[Wildbrowntrout]

Pcray, I was talking about Geigertown Rd, there is one hold off the the right of the road that looks deep enough. I always enjoyed fishing really small stuff because it's easier to target likely holes. As far as going up, I don't think there's much of anything at all. Maybe I'll walk downstream from Geigertown and see what I can get after the rain is done on Sunday.

 

[John96]

A small spring comes off of the mountain and flows behind my house. It is maybe 3 feet across at the widest part, probably 1.5 feet on average. There is a seasonal population of brookies that use the stream; I have seen fish up to 8' inches, which is huge if you consider the circumstances.

Considering this and other experiences, fish can be found into some pretty tight quarters. If they can physically get to it they are probably there. Navigability (in terms of the fish) is normally the limiting factor. Even then the fish will often surprise us, what looks like it would be impassable to us is nothing to them. I have seen fish swim through places where there was more of them out of the water than in.

 

[Char_Master]

Most (not all) of the native Brookie streams I fish in NCPA are no more than 5' across and I've caught fish, like others above said, in trickles that don't even look like they could support minnows. That said, the 10-14" trophy Brooks usually come from deeper pools in waters that are 3-5' wide. My Pap gave me a map of some of the lesser known waters he fished up that way a few years ago and showed me pictures of a pair of 28" and 29" Browns (you know what they're eating...) that he and his friend caught in a wilderness feeder creek that looked no more than 2.5' wide. Hoping to explore some of those creeks this year, sadly you can never fish them all!

 

[DavidFin]

I LOVE fishing headwaters and have definitely gone too far up them. The best indicator of fish life is bug and especially plant life. If there are no plants or algae then there are likely no bugs, no bug no fish. However, as others have suggested, when it doubt they're likely there.

 

[pcray1231]

Pcray, I was talking about Geigertown Rd, there is one hold off the the right of the road that looks deep enough. I always enjoyed fishing really small stuff because it's easier to target likely holes. As far as going up, I don't think there's much of anything at all. Maybe I'll walk downstream from Geigertown and see what I can get after the rain is done on Sunday.

And I have caught a fish in that hole.

I wouldn't call the fishing "good" by any means up there, it's kinda skipping around to spots with enough water to fish. They're spooky and you have to be real sneaky like to land a fly in a pinpoint location from a distance. All that for some very small fish, almost glorified minnows! But there are fish there.

Once you get down closer to the old splash dam, it becomes much more of a "stream", and the fishing becomes worthwhile.

 

[Wildbrowntrout]

That's good to hear! It is very similar to the size of a creek at my hunting cabin that you can have a great day, just very small fish. 3" is a trophy. Still fun to catch the little guys. Maybe I'll buy a 1wt and see what happens.

 

[troutbert]

Some wild trout streams have wild trout as far up as there is water.

But not all. Sometimes the extreme headwaters do not have trout, for various reasons.

Some streams are too acidic in the far headwaters, but gain some alkalinity a little further down. That is very common in areas where the underlying rock is predominately sandstone.

Some streams are too warm in the headwaters, but cooler further down. That may seem surprising because it's the reverse of the usual situation, but it is really not uncommon.

If you're curious about the far headwaters of a stream, go there and fish, and find out.

PS, I recommend a title that describes the topic. Such as "How Far Upstream Can Trout Live?" or anything like that.

 

[sarce]

The PFBC listing of headwaters as the upper limit is not always true. From what Mike has said, if they survey for wild trout near the mouth and find trout there, they have no need to survey the rest because the entire stream drainage receives increased environmental protection from the lower limit of trout population upstream. So on the list they are just assuming the population goes all the way up. It is probably true at least half the time.

 

[salmonoid]

The PFBC designation is one of convenience. It is much easier to say "headwaters" than it is to provide a definitive upstream stopping point, and on some streams, the headwaters is indeterminate and flow may be intermittent as well, so that at some times of year, fish can reach it, and if they do, they are trapped until a high water event. I once fished what is probably a third-order stream that was on the natural reproduction list and decided to fish a parallel third-order stream in the next valley over (the two third-order tribs joined just downstream from where I was fishing). That stream ended up having fish in it as well but wasn't officially designated on a map; however, I was told by the PFBC that if an UNT is classified as having natural reproduction, you can assume that the other tribs upstream from it fall under that classification, even though on a map produced from GIS only one stream section may show as supporting natural reproduction.

Char_Master - those 28-29" fish your pap showed you photos of I'd bet did not grow up in that small stream, but probably ran up out of a nearby river or lake at some point. I'd be curious to know what time of year they were caught.

This kind of small stream busting is the type I really enjoy, where you're working your way upstream and it seems like the stream is petering out. Always press on. So many times I've worked through a stretch of poor habitat where I wanted to quit but kept going and stumble on a change in gradient or geology that creates some nice pools again, the kind that hold 100% wild fish of the 11" brookie nature or of the 15" brownie nature. I think this has become one of the games I challenge myself with of late - how big of a streambred fish can I catch out of how small of a freestone stream..

Neither of the next two streams are extreme small headwater streams, but they are getting to the size that some anglers might dismiss them and walk back downstream.

This fish is an example of the fish and the slim habitat they can survive in. He's looking at his home (the undercut rock across the stream). Water is maybe a foot deep max for maybe two feet out from the rock and only a few inches deep for the rest of the breadth of the stream.

Or this stream - check out the volume of flow into the pool at the head (about 1.5' wide). There is actually quite a bit less water flowing through this stream than the stream in the first picture above. But, the little bit of water that is there forms a nice 3-foot deep pool at the tail, because of the way the underlying bedrock is exposed. And there is not one but two undercut rocks for fish to hide out under - one in the middle of the pool and one on the near foreground on the right bank.

I long suspected a pool boss should live here and finally caught him on Super Bowl Sunday. This may be the largest fish I have caught that still has visible parr marks.

I fished this stream again last Wednesday and whiffed on a smaller fish on my first few casts. Tried the rock on the right along the bank and nothing. Cast to the head of the pool and the pool boss just crushed the bugger as I stripped it down past the rock in the middle of the pool.

So regardless of what the official designation of "headwaters" is, press on and do your own stream surveying. You'll often be pleased and surprised at what you find.

 

[wildtrout2]

I always think of the "headwaters" of a stream as it's beginning, it's upper most reaches.

Here's a couple pics of the headwaters of a Class A brookie stream, one of the best I've fished, and it actually starts from a swamp. I've caught my biggest natives from this stream much farther down.

 

[BigggJack]

Are we talking Giegertown Rd like where that train graveyard is?

 

[pcray1231]

Ok. These are all big comparatively. I was talking headwaters here!

 

[pcray1231]

That's a small stream, but still a stream. How far up do trout go? See below. Yup, still trout here.

 

[Chaz]

Wildbrowntrout wrote:
I downloaded the most recent list of wild trout streams in PA, and noticed many streams say that the trout are from "headwaters to mouth". How far up into the headwaters do you think the trout can go? I drive past the headwaters of sixpenny everyday, and I highly doubt there's fish in that little stretch. Just wondering if headwaters does mean all the way to the origin, or just a general point on the stream to start the wild trout limits?

Trout can and do live in the farthest headwaters, and yes they are above the road at Six Penny.

 

[Wildbrowntrout]

Biggg, yep, just at the other end of it toward 345. Pcray, very cool! That the kind of little stuff that I love to fish! I know the guy who owns the land adjacent to the part above Geigertown rd. Might ask him if I can fish.