tomgamber wrote:
Willie Mays was doing the basket catch before Clemente. Willie Mays is third all time in homers. Every time someone approaches a record, they always seem to have to pass Mays right before the record holder.
I also challenge Farmer Dave's claim that Ruth was ever a part time player, pitcher or not.
Tom, you need to pick your "challenges" more carefully. :-D Do you really think I would post something like that if i couldn't back it up. And oh, by the way. Maybe you should challenge your own info. Willy Mays is actually 4th all time in HRs (not 3rd), but who's counting. Bonds, Aaron, Ruth, Mays.
But since you asked, what exactly are you challenging? Did you think I made those numbers up, or do think pitchers played every game back then? I wasn't questioning whether or not he was a full time pitcher (he was). But full time pitchers only played a fraction of the games played even back then. Therefore a fraction of the at bats of a position player. Ruth absolutely was a damn good pitcher, and was moved to fielding positions so he could play more, because of his hitting. Not just in the movies, either.
just a few more Ruth Stats.
We won't count his first year where he was listed as batting in 5 games and pitched in 4. I'm guessing he pinch hit once. total of 10 at bats.
Second year. Played in 42 games, pitched in 32. 103 plate appearances. He is not listed as playing any other positions in baseball-reference.com. With that info, and the low at bat numbers compared to games played, it is probably safe to assume he pinch hit the other 10 games. 18-8 with 16 complete games. So, he "appeared" in 42 games while the team had a record of 101-50? In other words, he played in less than 28 percent of the games the team played in, because he was a pitcher. They won the world series that year. another interesting fact. 4 home runs as a pitcher was only 3 less than the league leaders in home runs that year, and he did it in 109 games. ruth led the team in wild pitches that year. :-D
Third year. Pitched 44 games 23-12, and played in 67. However, there are no fielding stats listed for that year either. Pinch hit in 27 games? 150 plate appearances. team played 154 games. Team went 91-63 with a world series. So, he played in 43.5 percent of the games. that's a lot for a pitcher, but 23 game appearances were not as a pitcher (I'm guessing pinch hitter because no fielding stats, and low batting totals for that many games). Led league in ERA and shutouts, and third in wins (trailed buy only 2).
Fourth year. Pitched in 41 games, played in 52 of 152 games (34%). No fielding stats listed. 141 plate appearances. his 24 wins was second in the league, and his 35 complete games was most in the league by 5.
Only 9 home runs those 3 years, but his batting average was outstanding. but you have to consider the era. Back then, 10 in a season was a lot.
It wasn't until his 5th year with Boston moved him to fielding positions for his bat, and he was in line for another 20 game season. Even that year, he only played 95 games. However, for some reason, Boston is shown as only playing 126 games with a WS. that's 75 percent of the games. Some might argue that this is full time, but i wouldn't. 11 home runs that year, which was a lot in that era. in fact, it tied him for the most in the majors that year. Next highest was 6?, this was as a part time fielder, part time pitcher. Moving him in the field started to pay off.
So, that is 3 or 4 years in his prime that he played only part time (depending on ones definition of full or part time), and he actually led in homerun production!
His sixth year, he played in 130 games, but the team only played 136 games (probably because of the war). That was his first full time season IMO. That year he pitched in 17 with 9 wins. Still on pace for yet another 20 wins if he was a full time pitcher. 29 home runs. That was 19 more than anyone else in the league!!! I believe it shattered the single season record at the time. Sold to the yankees the following season.
I stand by what i said. Has there ever been any other pitcher in history that had back to back 20 game winning seasons that was moved to the field for their hitting? Babe Ruth saved baseball (after the black sox scandal. NOBODY ever had as big of an impact on the game. at least not as big of a positive impact. You can't compare Bonds to Ruth simply because it is a totally different game today. You just can't compare an era where it takes at least 50 home runs to lead the league to an era where 10 or 11 would do it before the Babe came along.
P.S. I double checked these stats against Baseball almanac and ESPN.
A Clemente stat that Mays can't touch. Clemente was the first Hispanic in the majors. Saw that on the history channel awhile back.
