Non-Hackle Dry Flys
- Thread starter ErnieBall
- Start date
Acristickid
Well-known member
gfen- agree with that! I have problems with putting on to much material- try less wraps maybe.
ryguyfi
Active member
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2006
- Messages
- 4,796
When I tie all my flies, I start from the back and work my way up. I tie in the tail, dub or wrap the body about 2/3 up, then tie in my hackle. I strip the feather about 1/4 inch and tie that part in. It makes it easier than having all the barbules in the way. Once it's tied in then I dub the rest to about 1/8 inch from the eye. Crouding the eye was my biggest problem when I started tying. When you leave yourself room to finish the fly, it makes your flies so much easier.
I don't use hackle pliers unless I'm using a small feather. I use both hands and wrap one turn ahead of the other and use my other hand to keep the feather up against the hook. when I'm finished wrapping, I hold the feather down and put a few thread wraps over top of it then cut off the excess. I pull the hackle back with my finger and thumb and make the thread wrapped head, cement, and half hitch it a few times. It takes some time to get used to but I'm getting better every year I tie.
Keep practicing and don't give up. The hackled dry fly is popular because it does work. I have so many flies that are just horrible from when I first started tying. I caught some fish on them, but they got mangled, or just looked so bad that I took them apart and started over. you'll get better over time. Keep trying!
where ya from Ernie, I think you're in my area. Maybe one day we can get together and fish or I can help you with your ties. I'm not the best out there, but I'm sure I can help.
I don't use hackle pliers unless I'm using a small feather. I use both hands and wrap one turn ahead of the other and use my other hand to keep the feather up against the hook. when I'm finished wrapping, I hold the feather down and put a few thread wraps over top of it then cut off the excess. I pull the hackle back with my finger and thumb and make the thread wrapped head, cement, and half hitch it a few times. It takes some time to get used to but I'm getting better every year I tie.
Keep practicing and don't give up. The hackled dry fly is popular because it does work. I have so many flies that are just horrible from when I first started tying. I caught some fish on them, but they got mangled, or just looked so bad that I took them apart and started over. you'll get better over time. Keep trying!
where ya from Ernie, I think you're in my area. Maybe one day we can get together and fish or I can help you with your ties. I'm not the best out there, but I'm sure I can help.
Heritage-Angler
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2006
- Messages
- 3,307
When you're an old fart, and have been tying for decades, you'll develop your own little "tricks" for tying. One of the neater ones I've found that works for tying off hackle and basically anything else is this:
Position the thread on the hook where you want to tie off the material (generally one hook eye length behind the eye). Sometimes, I'll even throw a half hitch on there so the thread doesn't move if bumped, and let the bobbin hang there.
Wrap the material (hackle, etc) up to the hanging thread, and make the last wrap in FRONT of the thread. Holding the material straight up from the hook shank, make one wrap of thread in FRONT of the material (or two if you're paranoid).
Presto - the material is secured just where you wanted, leaving exactly enough room for a head. This works perfectly - every time! 😎
Thread control is a big part of the battle...
Position the thread on the hook where you want to tie off the material (generally one hook eye length behind the eye). Sometimes, I'll even throw a half hitch on there so the thread doesn't move if bumped, and let the bobbin hang there.
Wrap the material (hackle, etc) up to the hanging thread, and make the last wrap in FRONT of the thread. Holding the material straight up from the hook shank, make one wrap of thread in FRONT of the material (or two if you're paranoid).
Presto - the material is secured just where you wanted, leaving exactly enough room for a head. This works perfectly - every time! 😎
Thread control is a big part of the battle...
ErnieBall
Member
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2009
- Messages
- 557
tom & gfen: that was definitely my problem at first -- i was crowding the eye wayyyy to much, but i started to realize what i was doing and tried to stop. I really think my main problem is just holding the damn tip of the hackle down and wrapping the thread around it before the thread unwinds.. -- thanks for the vids tom, i am checkin them out now
ryfly: I am in Butler county and would love to hit the stream with you sometime -- doesnt have to be in butler though -- i'm graduating college this month so my schedule is gonna be pretty flexible, i plan on doing a lot of fishing this summer
ryfly: I am in Butler county and would love to hit the stream with you sometime -- doesnt have to be in butler though -- i'm graduating college this month so my schedule is gonna be pretty flexible, i plan on doing a lot of fishing this summer
ryguyfi
Active member
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2006
- Messages
- 4,796
Hey Ernie, when you place your hook in the vise, try tilting the eye of the hook ever so slightly up. When my hook is pointed down, then my thread wraps towards the eye get unwrapped sometimes. Just a few degree adjustment may make the difference for you.
It's not a great way of fixing the problem, but if you croud the eye too much, take your finger nail, or your bodkin and push the materials back from the eye. The real fix, is to do it right, but if I run out of room, that's what I do.
I'm up at the Neshannock, Slippery Rock, Shenango River all the time, so maybe we can meet up there sometime. Right between us.
It's not a great way of fixing the problem, but if you croud the eye too much, take your finger nail, or your bodkin and push the materials back from the eye. The real fix, is to do it right, but if I run out of room, that's what I do.
I'm up at the Neshannock, Slippery Rock, Shenango River all the time, so maybe we can meet up there sometime. Right between us.
ErnieBall
Member
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2009
- Messages
- 557
definitely -- thats actually great advice though - i have tended to tilt my hook up ever so slightly because i am usually doing nymphs with beadheads, and it just helps the beadhead stay stationary while im tying the lead on or whatever- so maybe i have carried that over to dry flys -- great advice -- we'll talk and figure something out!
Stevie-B
Member
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2006
- Messages
- 414
Ernie,
not to make things more complicated, but a neat trick that I found was to add the hackle in reverse. Here's how I do it:
I tie in the hackel by the butts with the hackle extending over the hook eye. My last tie down loop is where i want the head of the fly to start. Now leave the hackle as is. Tie in the wings, then the tail and dub the body. Leave the thread at the end of the dubbing. Now you can wind the hackle back to where the dubbing ends. Tie down the hackle at this point. Wind the thread towards the eye, zigzagging through the hackle. Tie off and done. No crowding the eye. Also, most hackle is slightly larger at the base. Wrapping the hackle this way puts those longer barbs at the front of the fly instead of the middle.
not to make things more complicated, but a neat trick that I found was to add the hackle in reverse. Here's how I do it:
I tie in the hackel by the butts with the hackle extending over the hook eye. My last tie down loop is where i want the head of the fly to start. Now leave the hackle as is. Tie in the wings, then the tail and dub the body. Leave the thread at the end of the dubbing. Now you can wind the hackle back to where the dubbing ends. Tie down the hackle at this point. Wind the thread towards the eye, zigzagging through the hackle. Tie off and done. No crowding the eye. Also, most hackle is slightly larger at the base. Wrapping the hackle this way puts those longer barbs at the front of the fly instead of the middle.
jason8709
Member
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2009
- Messages
- 46
Ernie
You said that you were using your fathers 10-15 year old hackle? I would recommend investing in some more modern capes. After I got the hang of the basics of tying I bought three Silver grade Whiting capes. Years later, I still have them and they have plenty of feathers. Genetics have done wonders for fly tying capes. The feathers now are extremely long (I tie 3-4 flies out of one feather), they have stiff barbs (for flotation) and the stem is very strong so breakage isn't an issue. They are pricey (~$40 when I bought them about 4-5 years ago) but well worth it.
Another tool that helped me hackle flies was the rotary vice. I don't have a Materelli or anything fancy, just a basic rotary. That way, when I'm winding the hackle, the vice is doing all the work, I just hold the feather and viola! a perfectly hackled fly.
Don't get me wrong, I am no expert tier but those were a few things that made a difference in the quality of the flies I produced.
Just my $.02
You said that you were using your fathers 10-15 year old hackle? I would recommend investing in some more modern capes. After I got the hang of the basics of tying I bought three Silver grade Whiting capes. Years later, I still have them and they have plenty of feathers. Genetics have done wonders for fly tying capes. The feathers now are extremely long (I tie 3-4 flies out of one feather), they have stiff barbs (for flotation) and the stem is very strong so breakage isn't an issue. They are pricey (~$40 when I bought them about 4-5 years ago) but well worth it.
Another tool that helped me hackle flies was the rotary vice. I don't have a Materelli or anything fancy, just a basic rotary. That way, when I'm winding the hackle, the vice is doing all the work, I just hold the feather and viola! a perfectly hackled fly.
Don't get me wrong, I am no expert tier but those were a few things that made a difference in the quality of the flies I produced.
Just my $.02
ErnieBall
Member
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2009
- Messages
- 557
jason: i probably should invest in new feathers -- i just dont want to drop the money until I know for sure that i am going to be tying my own flies and wont have to buy them anymore -- i'll cave eventually though ..
im gonna try that stevie
thanks guys!
im gonna try that stevie
thanks guys!
tomgamber
Well-known member
its probably not your feathers...I still have necks from 20 years ago I still use now and then. Would it make it easier? It might. But it's probably not the source of your frustration. If you really want to know. Buy a pack of whiting 100s. Enough dry fly hackle for about 100 flies in about a dozen preselected feathers. You can find them for less than $15 if you look. If these feathers make a world of difference, you have your answer. No need to invest 100's of dollars.
littlelehigh
Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2008
- Messages
- 888
After skimming this thread yesterday and having difficulties myself tying dry hackle in I have to say Jay's method worked well for me especially once I blended it with Heritage's.
I always get a few barbules (sp?) that don't cooperate and point out over the hook eye. Drives me crazy because I just can't seem to cut them off flush with the thread. There is always a small stubble left.
I have come to the conclusion in order to improve you need to tie, tie, tie dries. They DO get better as long as you don't let it frustrate you. Sometimes I cut a piece of a coffee straw 1/8" long and split it length wise to slip your thread through. Place it over the hook eye and past the head. This will hold your hackle back giving you 2 free hands to finish the head off. Also you can cut a V in the hackle on the bottom of your fly so it sits correctly in the water.
Before you give up on dries let some fish vote on it's true appearence you might be very suprised at yourself. The other week I threw a very odd looking BWO comparadun and much to my suprise a brown grabbed it. It looked awful to me but just goes to reinforce the fact that commercial ties are to satisfy the fisherman and not always the fish.
Last don't be afraid to spend an hour tying a single fly only to foul up the head and have to cut the whole thing apart and start over. Look at it as 1 less garbage fly towards a good one and besides if you don't use the 10 yr old capes there just gonna collect dust. Use em up and relax you deserve a pat on the back just for trying many are to intimidated to even attempt such a task.
Just my $.02
I always get a few barbules (sp?) that don't cooperate and point out over the hook eye. Drives me crazy because I just can't seem to cut them off flush with the thread. There is always a small stubble left.
I have come to the conclusion in order to improve you need to tie, tie, tie dries. They DO get better as long as you don't let it frustrate you. Sometimes I cut a piece of a coffee straw 1/8" long and split it length wise to slip your thread through. Place it over the hook eye and past the head. This will hold your hackle back giving you 2 free hands to finish the head off. Also you can cut a V in the hackle on the bottom of your fly so it sits correctly in the water.
Before you give up on dries let some fish vote on it's true appearence you might be very suprised at yourself. The other week I threw a very odd looking BWO comparadun and much to my suprise a brown grabbed it. It looked awful to me but just goes to reinforce the fact that commercial ties are to satisfy the fisherman and not always the fish.
Last don't be afraid to spend an hour tying a single fly only to foul up the head and have to cut the whole thing apart and start over. Look at it as 1 less garbage fly towards a good one and besides if you don't use the 10 yr old capes there just gonna collect dust. Use em up and relax you deserve a pat on the back just for trying many are to intimidated to even attempt such a task.
Just my $.02
FlySwatter
Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2009
- Messages
- 314
I 100% agree with the new genetic hackle take.
I had been using some early 1990s Metz capes. I was having a rough time getting decent looking and floating flies.
A few years ago I bought a Whiting 1/4 saddle (Silver grade). It was night & day! Instantly my flies looked and acted much better.
I suggest the 1/4 saddles unless you are a production tier. They'll last for many years and you can use the money you save to buy more colors.
If you can't foot the investment in quality hackle, stick to comparaduns and buy your haclked dries. Comparaduns (and sparkleduns) are excellent flies and are a heck of a lot cheaper to tie. You can also tie emergers with CDC for difficult fish. The only possible drawback is floatation: you might have issues in fast water and you probably can't drop a weighted nymph off the back. I like beadheads off of parachutes. Even then floatation can be an issue. This year I'm trying foam parachute posts.
Good luck!
I had been using some early 1990s Metz capes. I was having a rough time getting decent looking and floating flies.
A few years ago I bought a Whiting 1/4 saddle (Silver grade). It was night & day! Instantly my flies looked and acted much better.
I suggest the 1/4 saddles unless you are a production tier. They'll last for many years and you can use the money you save to buy more colors.
If you can't foot the investment in quality hackle, stick to comparaduns and buy your haclked dries. Comparaduns (and sparkleduns) are excellent flies and are a heck of a lot cheaper to tie. You can also tie emergers with CDC for difficult fish. The only possible drawback is floatation: you might have issues in fast water and you probably can't drop a weighted nymph off the back. I like beadheads off of parachutes. Even then floatation can be an issue. This year I'm trying foam parachute posts.
Good luck!
ErnieBall
Member
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2009
- Messages
- 557
ok --- this might sound like a really dumb question -- but - ive been doing some scouring and when you say "comparaduns" and "sparkleduns" - what exactly do you mean -- is that just the material that goes in to tie the duns? For example - ive been tying some PMD's with deers hair for the wing and white hackle feathers for the tail with yellow dubbing -- would that be considered a "comparadun"? dumb question, i know
David
Active member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2008
- Messages
- 1,835
The compara line simply uses deer hair as the wings and legs in place of the hackle, so yes your ties would be compara duns. If you can find the book Hatches II, it gives you a good description from the people who originated it. There are comparaduns, emergers, and nymphs.
Here are some samples:
http://www.flyrecipes.com/index.php/Search.html?searchword=compara
Sparkleduns would be more with the tail / trailing shuck material. That link shows some sparkle / compara fly combos.
Here are some samples:
http://www.flyrecipes.com/index.php/Search.html?searchword=compara
Sparkleduns would be more with the tail / trailing shuck material. That link shows some sparkle / compara fly combos.
tomgamber
Well-known member
fly_flinger
Member
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2006
- Messages
- 498
There's always the No-Hackle Dry. Dave Hughs book- Trout Flies- explains it. It's kind of tricky at first but is very effective.
