Fish Sticks
Well-known member
I am still wondering about the earlier discussion on the forum from this winter about stocking delays and if it was related. I remember PFBC’s answer explaining those delays being clear as mud.
R
Roofin' Trouter
Active member
Wow.. They raise a lot of trout. Somewhere around 20-25 thousand?
Fish Sticks
Well-known member
I wonder where they stock all those can’t be all in falling springs right?
G
Grassrod
Member
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2012
- Messages
- 31
The majority of them go in the Conococheague creek and a few other areas near Chambersburg
Fish Sticks
Well-known member
Great another spring influenced stream that has wild native brook Trout awesome.
These signs posted at PFBC sites should be changed from
To………………….
jifigz
Well-known member
What kinds of impacts have the snails had on the western streams where they've been the longest and have achieved pretty high densities? I know what we speculate may happen, but have they collapsed (or severly reduced) any populations of mayflies, caddisflies, and/or stoneflies or other macroinvertebrates that are essential to the aquatic food chain?
I applaud efforts to stop the snail and campaigns for public knowledge. We will slow them some, for sure, but probably not stop em.
I applaud efforts to stop the snail and campaigns for public knowledge. We will slow them some, for sure, but probably not stop em.
Fish Sticks
Well-known member
Its really hard to determine how some of these trophic cascades work with secondary, tertiary ect. effects in general with invasive species. I am not knowledgeable about the extent of damage they have caused out west. I just know they are known to disrupt the macros which effects trout.
“This mudsnail reproduces by cloning, which means females develop complete embryos without fertilization. In a matter of one year, a single female could result in a colony of 40 million snails. When large colonies of mudsnails are present, food for other stream invertebrate populations can become scarce. Fish that feed on native invertebrates like mayflies and caddisflies may find it more difficult to forage in rivers invaded by New Zealand mudsnails. Fish will consume New Zealand mudsnails, but due to the snail’s thick shell, equipped with a tightly closing “hatch” called the operculum, they are difficult for fish to digest, offer the fish little nutritional value and can be excreted alive. Substituting mudsnails for native food sources can reduce the growth, condition and ultimately the abundance of key sport fish including trout.”
Blue cat fish were not causing an obvious host of negative effects for there first few decades now Maryland’s governor is asking for statewide disaster declaration for federal funding because their taking over streams and destroying biodiversity.
Just like stock market “ past results do not guarantee future performance”
Lake trout were present for nearly 100 years in some western lakes without a peep until they finally exploded and crashed them.
pcray1231
Well-known member
I don't get up there as much as I used to, so it could be just hitting at the wrong time. But in Spring, from Benner down to Bellefonte, the hatches have seemed to me to be declining. Sulphers and BWO's are the 2 I'm mostly speaking to, but that's the major hatches there, and it ain't what it used to be. How much of that is due to snails? I dunno.
I don't fish it much, but non traditional species for Spring Creek (grannoms, March Browns, etc) are increasingly being reported in the lower end after the dam removal. And the upper end, above Rock on up through Houserville and to Lemont, the hatches are still pretty strong.
I don't fish it much, but non traditional species for Spring Creek (grannoms, March Browns, etc) are increasingly being reported in the lower end after the dam removal. And the upper end, above Rock on up through Houserville and to Lemont, the hatches are still pretty strong.
B
bdhoover77
Well-known member
This is not specific to NZ mudsnails, and in fact they did not discuss snails at all, but a recent Orvis FF podcast with Robert O’Harrow of the Washington Post discussed the decline of mayflies. Among other factors, Mr. O’Harrow mentioned pesticides, road salt, overdevelopment, and lawn treatments as potentially having a deleterious impact on mayfly populations. If nothing else, stop treating your lawns and let the insects flourish!
Another challenge to mayflies, caddis, and other insect life in streams is most likely not a good thing.
The Orvis Fly-Fishing Podcast: Are mayflies in trouble? with Robert O'Harrow on Apple Podcasts
Show The Orvis Fly-Fishing Podcast, Ep Are mayflies in trouble? with Robert O'Harrow - Jan 13, 2023
podcasts.apple.com
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T
troutbert
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2006
- Messages
- 10,767
The Grannoms have been heavy from Bellefonte to mouth at least since 1988, long before the dam was removed.
The big change regarding Grannoms is that in the past they were present but uncommon from Bellefonte up through the canyon. Their numbers have been increasing in that area.
I don't think this has anything to do with the mud snails, as grannoms have been gradually increasing in the middle parts of Spring Creek for some years, starting before the mud snails showed up.
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jifigz
Well-known member
You know, I feel nearly 100% certain it will only take time before little invaders such as the NZ Mudsnail is everywhere. I just really hope these species one day decline on their own and find their niche. Kind of like the initial boom but eventually the ecosystem adapts.
It makes me wonder and sad about just how much is too much and when we will hit the tipping point. The hemlock woolly adelgid, the EAB, the mudsnail, the Asian Longhorn Beetle, the lanternflies, dutch elm disease, gypsy moths, the chestnut blight. yada, yada, yada, and the list just goes on and on. There are so many to remember and to name and can the actual environment tolerate it forever. I sure hope we find some balance here in the future.
Think about how many species are more or less forever changed, damaged, or gone and our landscape altered. It is sad.
It makes me wonder and sad about just how much is too much and when we will hit the tipping point. The hemlock woolly adelgid, the EAB, the mudsnail, the Asian Longhorn Beetle, the lanternflies, dutch elm disease, gypsy moths, the chestnut blight. yada, yada, yada, and the list just goes on and on. There are so many to remember and to name and can the actual environment tolerate it forever. I sure hope we find some balance here in the future.
Think about how many species are more or less forever changed, damaged, or gone and our landscape altered. It is sad.
silverfox
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2006
- Messages
- 1,928
We should do what we're told to do about introduced fish species. Embrace them and be glad they're here. Same with lantern flies, snakeheads, round goby, flathead, rusty crayfish, Japanese knotweed, hydrilla etc. Seems silly to get worked up over one species while promoting and embracing another. Maybe PFBC could start propagating and promoting round goby instead of trying to eradicate them.
Talk about mixed messages.
Talk about mixed messages.
wildtrout2
Well-known member
Not to be a "sky is falling" (which it is) person, but I honestly don't ever see "some balance" taking place. I believe it's too late for all of that. Just enjoy what you can, while you can. Just being realistic.
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M
Mike
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2006
- Messages
- 5,550
Almost every stream where they have been found so far either has a special reg area on it or it is geographically close to or is a trib to a stream with a special reg area. Only three of the below waters don’t match that description. It would be interesting to see more data from waters not associated, as described above, with special reg areas.
In Pennsylvania, NZM have been reported from at least 13 counties (Figure 4). NZM were first documented within Pennsylvania in 2005 from Lake Erie in the vicinity of Presque Isle State Park (Levri et al. 2007). In 2013, NZM were discovered in Spring Creek, Centre County (Levri et al. 2020). Since 2018, NZM have also been reported in numerous streams and several rivers, many of which are popular trout waters in southeastern or central Pennsylvania including Bald Eagle Creek (Centre/Clinton Co.), Big Spring Creek (Cumberland Co.), Bushkill Creek (Northampton), Cedar Creek (Lehigh Co.), Codorus Creek (York Co.), East Branch Brandywine Creek (Chester Co.), Falling Spring Branch (Franklin Co.)., Fishing Creek (Clinton Co.), Jordan Creek (Lehigh Co.), Lake Erie (Erie Co.), Lehigh River, (Lehigh/Northampton Co.), Little Lehigh Creek (Lehigh Co.), Monocacy Creek, (Northampton Co.), Perikiomen Creek (Bucks Co.), Pohopoco Creek (Carbon Co.) Saucon Creek (Northampton Co.), Schuylkill River (Berks, Montgomery, and Philadelphia Co.), Spring Creek (Centre Co.), Trindle Spring Run (Cumberland Co.), Trout Creek (Lehigh Co.), Tuplehocken Creek (Berks Co.), Valley Creek (Chester Co.), Wissahickon Creek (Philadelphia Co.), and Wyomissing Creek (Berks Co.).
In Pennsylvania, NZM have been reported from at least 13 counties (Figure 4). NZM were first documented within Pennsylvania in 2005 from Lake Erie in the vicinity of Presque Isle State Park (Levri et al. 2007). In 2013, NZM were discovered in Spring Creek, Centre County (Levri et al. 2020). Since 2018, NZM have also been reported in numerous streams and several rivers, many of which are popular trout waters in southeastern or central Pennsylvania including Bald Eagle Creek (Centre/Clinton Co.), Big Spring Creek (Cumberland Co.), Bushkill Creek (Northampton), Cedar Creek (Lehigh Co.), Codorus Creek (York Co.), East Branch Brandywine Creek (Chester Co.), Falling Spring Branch (Franklin Co.)., Fishing Creek (Clinton Co.), Jordan Creek (Lehigh Co.), Lake Erie (Erie Co.), Lehigh River, (Lehigh/Northampton Co.), Little Lehigh Creek (Lehigh Co.), Monocacy Creek, (Northampton Co.), Perikiomen Creek (Bucks Co.), Pohopoco Creek (Carbon Co.) Saucon Creek (Northampton Co.), Schuylkill River (Berks, Montgomery, and Philadelphia Co.), Spring Creek (Centre Co.), Trindle Spring Run (Cumberland Co.), Trout Creek (Lehigh Co.), Tuplehocken Creek (Berks Co.), Valley Creek (Chester Co.), Wissahickon Creek (Philadelphia Co.), and Wyomissing Creek (Berks Co.).
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jifigz
Well-known member
I do believe more serious anglers, such as us, are the biggest reason they initially spread so much. We are the folks that hop around and actually travel more to fish, thereby helping to spread it. Now that they are this widespread, however, they will be everywhere. There is no stopping them.
Lets just hope their impact isn't too great.
and WT2, yes, we run amuck with invasives, but many have found a balance. But newcomers keep coming.
From what I read, China has more problems with invasives than anywhere basically. They may or may not care, I don't know, but it is a "2-way street."
wildtrout2
Well-known member
And, eventually everybody in Florida will get squeezed and swallowed by a Burmese Python. 
R
Roofin' Trouter
Active member
Sections of FSB, Dennis Ck, Conococheague, and upper Conodoguinet. That is what PFBC co-op page says but I know they used to stock the kids fishing area on Rocky Mountain at Caledonia State Park,too.
Fish Sticks
Well-known member
Special regs are also associated with stocked fish in many cases. Saying infected PFBC hatcheries are ruled out as the cause when FS gets it’s fish from a hatchery in an infected waterway is not a believable notion. these special regs areas have both anglers and hatchery fish coming in.
jifigz
Well-known member
That is true, lots of special regs are associated with stocked fish.....but many more areas that are still supposedly free of mudsnails are also associated with stocked fish. It isn't like mudsnails are always going hand in hand with stocking......although it could be.......
I would be willing to wager that the Mudsnail is already far more widespread than we realize. It is just that in most places that get fished, people aren't exactly looking for them or the majority of the anglers don't know what they are.
I am going to start really paying attention to the streams I fish to see if I can find them and make the public (and this board) aware of their presence.
Fish Sticks
Well-known member
Yea I agree its not all one or the other. Its just in falling-springs case they happen to receive their fish from benner. And like you said their hard to notice so a hatchery infestation may be missed as well. I am sure anglers have spread them. I freeze my waders in the garage for 6 hours between watersheds. If your on a trip can’t always do that so I try to use a salt solution in a cooler to kill em.
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