NC snow melt

[wildtrout2]

With Kettle over 600cfs, is it safe to say it's from snow melt? The whole region is up pretty good. NC has been getting robbed when it comes to rain in recent years.

 

[BradFromPotter]

wildtrout2 wrote:
With Kettle over 600cfs, is it safe to say it's from snow melt? The whole region is up pretty good. NC has been getting robbed when it comes to rain in recent years.

snowmelt it is! You can even kayak down the South Branch of Pine!

 

[tomgamber]

After last year's levels, it's a good thing.

 

[drakeking412]

thats awesome to hear and a really good sign going into spring

 

[salmonoid]

drakeking412 wrote:
thats awesome to hear and a really good sign going into spring

Cue the obligatory annual PA "snowpack" discussions...

It's a sign that the temperatures were warm for a few days, enough to melt most of the snow on the ground. Nothing more, nothing less. Happens every year and it has zero correlation with the amount of rain that may or may not fall in the spring, summer and fall.

Having snow on the ground is certainly better than having no snow on the ground - think of it as the equivalent of a heavy day of summer rain, but maybe released over a few more days. But that's it.

Just do the math - take the amount of snow that has fallen over the season (probably 50-60" this year over parts of the northern tier). Assume a snow to liquid equivalent of anywhere from 10:1 to 20:1 and you have anywhere from roughly 3-6" total liquid for the entire season. Some of that has already melted when it fell or during shorter warming events, so you're probably releasing 2-4" of liquid max over a longer melt event.

How much it rains in the spring, summer and fall will determine stream levels for the year, not how much snow melt we had the previous winter.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

While our snowmelt ill not feed streams all spring, I think the duration of snow cover and the fact that we didn't have a deep frost has to be good for groundwater recharge.

 

[k-bob]

Snow melts can produce unusually high acid levels in streams, affecting trout populations. I like these kits to see pH out there fishin.

 

[k-bob]

Pfbc bio survey snip mentioning snowmelts

 

[drakeking412]

lycoflyfisher wrote:
While our snowmelt ill not feed streams all spring, I think the duration of snow cover and the fact that we didn't have a deep frost has to be good for groundwater recharge.

^this right here. While it is correct that initial runoff is just like a rain storm the aquifers really enjoy a good pumping too. I didn't learn much about snow melt recharge in my hydrology classes and from what I can tell a couple studies have been done but I'm not buying the paper haha.

Here is a free Berkeley Lab link with a little info and a graphic showing what I'm talking about.

https://watershed.lbl.gov/2019/05/23/mechanisms-of-groundwater-recharge-in-a-snowmelt-dominated-headwater-basin/

 

[drakeking412]

k-bob wrote:
Snow melts can produce unusually high acid levels in streams, affecting trout populations. I like these kits to see pH out there fishin.

Wait. Are you actually out there taking pH values with that kit? You could probably get away with a dip stick multi meter for a similar price that will do pH and temp as well as no glass and waterproof.

https://www.hannainst.com/hi98128-phep-ph-tester.html

Cool to see other people taking some WQ measurements out there. I'd be interested to hear if you ever found anything cool.

 

[troutbert]

I'd also be interested if you find any interesting pH readings.

Someone told me that he was getting very low pH readings in upper Kettle Creek. I'm surprised at that and wonder if his readings were accurate.

And if it is true, I'd like to know what is causing it.

 

[k-bob]

Drakeking ... I tried a few electronic pH meters and found them to be fussy need maintenance... kit is cheap ez to carry reliable. For temperature I have a really nice infrared.

TB. Upper Schaefer Creek Franklin / Perry County this Sunday 5.6 pH but it's got Tuscarora bedrock in its Uplands that's what happens

Tiny stream right next door with Juniata bedrock in its uplands 6.5 pH.

Trout Creek nearby where it crosses a major road Downstream of the former Shippensburg Reservoir 5.8 (tuscarora in that drainage plus high flow fits w lower pH)

 

[k-bob]

A detail: drakeking the hach kit's tubes are plastic, not glass.

 

[drakeking412]

I just always used the dip sticks for all my monitoring and really liked the convenience of tying it to my pants and letting it go while i took flows. They do frequently need calibrated though and if improperly stored you'll go through probes faster than flies.

I LOVED my Hach products though so I'm sure I'd like the little meter you have. Glad to hear it works for you!

 

[k-bob]

TB upper kettle: "sites on the mainstem of Kettle Creek seem to
have normal pH levels except for streams with
AMD problems in the lower watershed" p 165.

http://www.kettlecreek.org/uploads/2/5/6/0/25607137/5waterquality_compa.pdf

p 205 shows bedrock geology of upper kettle, it's huntley and catskill, generally higher buffering.

 

[troutbert]

k-bob wrote:
TB upper kettle: "sites on the mainstem of Kettle Creek seem to
have normal pH levels except for streams with
AMD problems in the lower watershed" p 165.

http://www.kettlecreek.org/uploads/2/5/6/0/25607137/5waterquality_compa.pdf

p 205 shows bedrock geology of upper kettle, it's huntley and catskill, generally higher buffering.

That corresponds to what you see in upper Kettle, i.e. wild brown trout way upstream, and also a wide variety of mayflies, including green drakes.

In the infertile streams that I fish, you don't find brown trout, just brook trout, and there are very few mayflies. And in the infertile streams, the far upper ends have no trout at all.

 

[k-bob]

Some field pH w hach kit: Spring brook lackawanna cty 6.6 highish flow. Little unt types 5.6-6.3. 6.3 = class a. Hach kit nice.

Speaking of class a and pH, google earth can overlay bedrock geology (from usgs) and class a (pfbc). Image below. A look at the ricketts/ sgl 13 / sgl 57 area suggests burgoon/blue isnt as good for class As, and so stream fertility, as catskill/yellow-brown or huntley/red.

Can get bedrock map:
https://www.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=dba8455c266b4b958b403959185ed97b

Geology still isnt everything for stream pH: Stream could be more acidic w swampy headwaters, less if limed or has paralell limestone roads, etc...

But kinda concerned about snowmelt impact this year on the many non class a brookie streams, maybe even more in the blue/ burgoon, here. See post 8.

 

[k-bob]

Burgoon in blue previous image:

"Water samples from the Burgoon Sandstone Member of
the Pocono Formation were the most acidic. The median pH of
water samples from the Burgoon Sandstone Member was 5.9;
from the Mauch Chunk Formation, 6.6; from the Catskill Formation, 6.9, and from the Huntley Mountain Formation, 7.0."

https://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2013/5085/support/sir2013-5085.pdf

 

[k-bob]

Numbers from hach kit make sense. Mid6 on stream w browns in more highly buffering bedrock, lower numbers in places w brookies. Using geology to target streams helps but still not everything. Could walk long way in stream w great pH but poor habitat due to sediment reducing pool depth etc.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Thanks for sharing k-bob, I may need to start keeping an eye on pH more. I share your concern with the snowmelt in some of our watersheds that already have a low buffering capacity. The compound effects of last summers drought, an early winter flood event and then pH issues with the snowmelt could be significant and may have noticeable effects on populations in those streams this year.