Native fish restoration- Westslopes and Grayling

[silverfox]

I have no idea why anyone would be against native fish, especially in PA where restoration projects would seemingly not impact anglers much if at all.

Have to believe that the streams to be restored would be on the smaller and more into the head water type where there is best chance to do well. Admittedly brook trout restoration is not something I know much about.

I’m not against giving them (knuckle dragging caves) cake. Let’em fish all those tailwaters and Great Lake tribs for invasive browns and rainbows.

While I’d concede many native fish are small ( mostly dictated by habitat/food ) not all natives are small if given the water. Hopefully relatable- here is a native rainbow.

This is where the media that the state puts out is so important. PA promotes stocking and nonnative fish ad nauseam while virtually never mentioning native brook trout and certainly not promoting native brook trout as a target species to encourage anglers to pursue them.

Couple that with zero angling regulations for the species, zero reclamation projects, missing promised deadlines, etc., then make the agency self-funded, and you've got what we see in PA.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I have no idea why anyone would be against native fish, especially in PA where restoration projects would seemingly not impact anglers much if at all.

Have to believe that the streams to be restored would be on the smaller and more into the head water type where there is best chance to do well. Admittedly brook trout restoration is not something I know much about.

I’m not against giving them (knuckle dragging caves) cake. Let’em fish all those tailwaters and Great Lake tribs for invasive browns and rainbows.

While I’d concede many native fish are small ( mostly dictated by habitat/food ) not all natives are small if given the water. Hopefully relatable- here is a native rainbow.

Agreed. Thats what PA NFC emphasizes is removal is a powerful technique that can reclaim lost populations and secure at risk ones but it can only be practiced in select smaller areas. As passionate as I am about angler education on this topic I don’t think states should have to “win over” everyone to act on their conservation responsibilities and responsibilities to protect species we have nearly destroyed. Many anglers are passionate about conservation of native species but many scream bloody murder if .4 miles of invasive brown trout trickle. In the end anglers having to all coumbaya on doing the right thing for native fish conservation is like assuming developers will be passionate about not impacting wetlands ect. Some might but obviously not their primary goal as builders and if an industry (building,angling) is driving the bus 100% we know what that looks like historically. Look at what slate run tackle shop is doing to slate and cedar for the financial gain of a couple people. Look at some people in here, they don’t care about native fish at all they just want the fish they want to catch to be put in the river and will go out if their way to poo poo any conservation of native species that threatens(realistically or not) their preferences in one stream. Thats how they feel and it is what it is and the hoards of other anglers out there that just care about catching fish and cannot be inconvenienced to help what we are destroying with invasive species should have a much more limited say in native fish restoration. Not be pandered to 100% like what pfbc is doing.

conservation and the environment already lost the popularity contest and we are paying for it so I agree with you, let them eat cake in a few places treat them like the largely unwilling to be informed in some cases and biased stakeholders not invested in conservation that they are in others.

 

[hemlock]

And no.
Montana has a slightly higher population than PA has licensed anglers. By about 200000+

Even still, it's apples to oranges.

What does restoration projects in Montana for grayling have to do with restoration projects in PA for brook trout?

What does 12 million people packed in a SE corner of PA have to do with a small forested freestone stream in Potter County?

Nothing.
🤷

Is someone trying to reclaim the Schuylkill River in Philadelphia?
Acting like the population dynamics in a state with major cities is hindering less dense forested areas from being reclaimed is stupid.
So is acting like the number of anglers hinders it.

I've been told harvest and fishing has no affect of brook trout population dynamics🤭

Post of the year.

 

[silverfox]

At least they spent several years studying the impact of angling/harvest on brown trout, and today (commission meeting today @10:15), we'll get a new angling regulation that explicitly protects brown trout by species. We have time and staff for all of that, but not for the things they said they would do a decade ago for our native species.

 

[tomgamber]

Post of the year.

First there are only 5 million ion the SE corner. The other 7 million are spread out over the state. they all want camps and roads and parking lots and all the uitilities that go with that. they all affect the water quality in one way or another. Run off, fracking, transprotation spills, flood control, logging etc... Those are things that caused ST to decline in the first place. They put other species in because ST couldn't hack it. Invasive species are only a problem because they are a replacement and they thrive. Think of it as white flight for fish.

 

[hemlock]

First there are only 5 million ion the SE corner. The other 7 million are spread out over the state. they all want camps and roads and parking lots and all the uitilities that go with that. they all affect the water quality in one way or another. Run off, fracking, transprotation spills, flood control, logging etc... Those are things that caused ST to decline in the first place. They put other species in because ST couldn't hack it. Invasive species are only a problem because they are a replacement and they thrive. Think of it as white flight for fish.

Are you really trying to say that because of camps, dirt roads, fracking, logging etc. we can't have native fish restoration projects in Pennsylvania?

 

[silverfox]

First there are only 5 million ion the SE corner. The other 7 million are spread out over the state. they all want camps and roads and parking lots and all the uitilities that go with that. they all affect the water quality in one way or another. Run off, fracking, transprotation spills, flood control, logging etc... Those are things that caused ST to decline in the first place. They put other species in because ST couldn't hack it. Invasive species are only a problem because they are a replacement and they thrive. Think of it as white flight for fish.

That's simply not true in all cases. There are numerous cases where ST were thriving and BT displaced them.

Regardless, the state said they would remove BT from ST waters a decade ago and then never did. They said they would carry out multiple reintroduction projects as part of the bay agreement. They never did. You're arguing a point that is already settled. There's no question BT are bad for ST. The only remaining issue is why PA hasn't done anything about it to date.

 

[Fish Sticks]

First there are only 5 million ion the SE corner. The other 7 million are spread out over the state. they all want camps and roads and parking lots and all the uitilities that go with that. they all affect the water quality in one way or another. Run off, fracking, transprotation spills, flood control, logging etc... Those are things that caused ST to decline in the first place. They put other species in because ST couldn't hack it. Invasive species are only a problem because they are a replacement and they thrive. Think of it as white flight for fish.

Oh right that’d be why when they rotenone a stream and reintroduce above a barrier wild native brook trout thrive above it and invasive trout remain below it in other states. The hundreds of studies clearly demonstrating invasive trout harm native brook trout are wrong and you know better of course because it conveniently aligns with your fishing preferences. We have examples of where JUST not stocking brown trout alone has kept them to small almost bon existent micro populations. But noooooooo “native trout just can’t hack it” says tomgamber. No mention of the human charity we give invasive trout by repeatedly dumping their shock troops in every year while the brook trout have to survive of only natural repro. Even if they stocked browns don’t reproduce they still have the negative interactions and some do reproduce. Look at the facts please……even if you don’t like them

 

[Fish Sticks]

That's simply not true in all cases. There are numerous cases where ST were thriving and BT displaced them.

Regardless, the state said they would remove BT from ST waters a decade ago and then never did. They said they would carry out multiple reintroduction projects as part of the bay agreement. They never did. You're arguing a point that is already settled. There's no question BT are bad for ST. The only remaining issue is why PA hasn't done anything about it to date.

Yea he might have more luck with the flat earther argument

 

[sixfootfenwick]

First there are only 5 million ion the SE corner. The other 7 million are spread out over the state. they all want camps and roads and parking lots and all the uitilities that go with that. they all affect the water quality in one way or another. Run off, fracking, transprotation spills, flood control, logging etc... Those are things that caused ST to decline in the first place. They put other species in because ST couldn't hack it. Invasive species are only a problem because they are a replacement and they thrive. Think of it as white flight for fish.

That might be the bastardized version of Pennsylvania trout history I've ever read.

Wild Brown trout wouldn't even have thrived after the logging area😂 they stocked because the cut down all forests and the anglers wanted a quick fix. They started stocking in 1880's and fracking didn't even become a thing until 1947.

Since then, brook trout would have repopulated just fine in many of the cold water streams. Now it's invasive wild trout and stocked trout holding them back in those.

Other streams not so much.

Take a science and history class.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

And I'm sorry😂 white flight for fish? 🤣

Brook trout didn't move out of streams to other areas because they didn't mingle with the brown trout folk well

They were decimated by unchecked logging and industry.

Just when I thought it couldn't get anymore stupid in here, it does. I mean, a serious, rational and intelligent discussion is lost at this point.

Thank goodness those racist brook trouts left town!

I hope you arent trying to say that brown trout are like brown people and are more suitable for degraded habitat.
😲

I hope not. Because that comment of yours either way is just dumb but in the last way ignorant and hateful.

Such a poor comparison it's just insulting.

 

[CRB]

That might be the bastardized version of Pennsylvania trout history I've ever read.

Wild Brown trout wouldn't even have thrived after the logging area😂 they stocked because the cut down all forests and the anglers wanted a quick fix. They started stocking in 1880's and fracking didn't even become a thing until 1947.

Since then, brook trout would have repopulated just fine in many of the cold water streams. Now it's invasive wild trout and stocked trout holding them back in those.

Other streams not so much.

Take a science and history class.

"fracking didn't even become a thing until 1947."
"Take a science and history class."
A torpedo is an explosive device used, especially in the early days of the petroleum industry, to fracture the surrounding rock at the bottom of an oil well to stimulate the flow of oil and to remove built-up paraffin wax that would restrict the flow. Earlier torpedoes used gunpowder, but the use of nitroglycerin eventually became widespread.
Edward A. L. Roberts developed the first torpedo and submitted a patent application in November 1864.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

"fracking didn't even become a thing until 1947."
"Take a science and history class."
A torpedo is an explosive device used, especially in the early days of the petroleum industry, to fracture the surrounding rock at the bottom of an oil well to stimulate the flow of oil and to remove built-up paraffin wax that would restrict the flow. Earlier torpedoes used gunpowder, but the use of nitroglycerin eventually became widespread.
Edward A. L. Roberts developed the first torpedo and submitted a patent application in November 1864.

The history of hydraulic fracturing in the United States dates back to 1947 and has been used safely in more than 1.2 million wells. Hydraulic fracturing involves pumping fluid into reservoirs to artificially induce small fractures.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

By the mid-1870s, the oil industry was well established, and the "rush" to drill wells and control production was over. Pennsylvania oil production peaked in 1891, and was later surpassed by western states such as Texas and California, but some oil industry remains in Pennsylvania.

And it wasn't torpedos used that killed brook trout either 🙄 it was the logging industry and coal mostly. frankly fracking for oil isnt listed anywhere, in any article, in any amount of history as a cause for the decline of brook trout in Pennsylvania, unlike hydraulic fracking that studies are showing is hurting the species.

If you find one, I'd love to see it.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Are you really trying to say that because of camps, dirt roads, fracking, logging etc. we can't have native fish restoration projects in Pennsylvania?

Yea he might have more luck with the flat earther argument

That's simply not true in all cases. There are numerous cases where ST were thriving and BT displaced them.

Regardless, the state said they would remove BT from ST waters a decade ago and then never did. They said they would carry out multiple reintroduction projects as part of the bay agreement. They never did. You're arguing a point that is already settled. There's no question BT are bad for ST. The only remaining issue is why PA hasn't done anything about it to date.

I want you three logical thinkers to riddle me this since the claim is Pennsylvania's population is draining the resources as to make any brook trout reintroduction impossible:

How can a state with 636.1 people per square mile restore brook trout populations and a state with 291 people square per mile can't?

I have a feeling willingness to try plays a factor.
I also have a feeling misinformation from both agency and laymen is a factor, as shown in this thread.

 

[silverfox]

I want you three logical thinkers to riddle me this since the claim is Pennsylvania's population is draining the resources as to make any brook trout reintroduction impossible:

How can a state with 636.1 people per square mile restore brook trout populations and a state with 291 people square per mile can't?

I have a feeling willingness to try plays a factor.
I also have a feeling misinformation from both agency and laymen is a factor, as shown in this thread.

Maryland Department of Natural Resources

Pennsylvania Fish & Boat Commission

 

[Fish Sticks]

Yea 13 min drive from PA border you travel down the enchanted interstate high way, pass the Ethereal IHOP, and enter the magical forest Asroth where their magic makes large healthy populations of wild native brook trout dominate the watershed despite agriculture, past logging, and not many springs. Oh yea and coincidentally MD DNR listen to fisheries scientists, has a brook trout biologist, and take common sense steps to manage brook trout in the water way but I think their success has something to do with the international house of pancakes.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Yea 13 min drive from PA border you travel down the enchanted interstate high way, pass the Ethereal IHOP, and enter the magical forest Asroth where their magic makes large healthy populations of wild native brook trout dominate the watershed despite agriculture, past logging, and not many springs. Oh yea and coincidentally MD DNR listen to fisheries scientists, has a brook trout biologist, and take common sense steps to manage brook trout in the water way but I think their success has something to do with the international house of pancakes.

You might be on to something , there are IHops around the smokies too and they are restoring brook trout.

Hopefully they don't torpedo the place

 

[CRB]

Sky is Pink too.
Im out
Good luck...

 

[silverfox]

Yea 13 min drive from PA border you travel down the enchanted interstate high way, pass the Ethereal IHOP, and enter the magical forest Asroth where their magic makes large healthy populations of wild native brook trout dominate the watershed despite agriculture, past logging, and not many springs. Oh yea and coincidentally MD DNR listen to fisheries scientists, has a brook trout biologist, and take common sense steps to manage brook trout in the water way but I think their success has something to do with the international house of pancakes.

I still can't believe PA doesn't have a brook trout biologist. That alone speaks volumes.