Native Brook Trout Reintroduction

[silverfox]

The USR overlaid over the west branch from the headwaters to Curwensville lake. I think if you bent the USR to follow the WB to the east it would reach the lake.

 

[pcray1231]

So a whole +/- 4 miles of the very last bit of stream might have more ST than BT but definitely not allopatric. Sounds about right?

Yeah.

Frankly I can't say I know of ANY brookie stream in PA that I am comfortable in saying is allopatric. And I have fished hundreds. Troutbert says there are infertile streams that hold only brookies. I am sure there are some, and I have no doubt acidity strongly favors brookies. But there are streams I've fished for years and years and caught only brookies, then you find 1 little brown and it blows your mind. Some of them are pretty acidic too. Maybe the occasional traveler or there's a less acidic spring seep or something, I dunno. But browns, even if in very low numbers, seem to be everywhere that wild trout exist at all.

 

[silverfox]

Yeah.

Frankly I can't say I know of ANY brookie stream in PA that I am comfortable in saying is allopatric. And I have fished hundreds. Troutbert says there are infertile streams that hold only brookies. I am sure there are some, and I have no doubt acidity strongly favors brookies. But there are streams I've fished for years and years and caught only brookies, then you find 1 little brown and it blows your mind. Some of them are pretty acidic too. Maybe the occasional traveler or there's a less acidic spring seep or something, I dunno. But browns, even if in very low numbers, seem to be everywhere that wild trout exist at all.

They're around. I'll give one example because it's all private property. Upper Moshannon. The water quality gets so bad in Moshannon from about Roup run downstream that nothing is getting up in there. Though we did find a brook trout down in the middle section 2 years ago in the mainstem hugging a tributary mouth. We got a pH of 3.54 where we found the fish. So they're using the mainstem to travel even w/ the low pH. Further down its much worse though and a lot more metal contamination.

I think these AMD impaired waters where the headwaters might be fairly clean can hold some single-species populations.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Yeah.

Frankly I can't say I know of ANY brookie stream in PA that I am comfortable in saying is allopatric. And I have fished hundreds. Troutbert says there are infertile streams that hold only brookies. I am sure there are some, and I have no doubt acidity strongly favors brookies. But there are streams I've fished for years and years and caught only brookies, then you find 1 little brown and it blows your mind. Some of them are pretty acidic too. Maybe the occasional traveler or there's a less acidic spring seep or something, I dunno. But browns, even if in very low numbers, seem to be everywhere that wild trout exist at all.

Yea besides places where silver fox is talking about that have an extreme chemical or physical barrier it’s getting really slim. I don’t think anyone has very recent broad enough data in PA answering this question, lots of streams haven’t been surveyed in a while. I worry a lot of days I could count the number of these pure allopatric trickles left on fingers and toes at this point.

 

[troutbert]

There is a large mileage of streams in PA where there are only brook trout. I know of a stream that is 70 feet wide and gets up to 80F in the summer, and the only wild trout in there are native brook trout, including all its tributaries.

Again, it's an infertile watershed. There is no mine drainage there, but the pH and alkalinity are low because of the geology.

And there are very large numbers of smaller streams where the only fish are brookies. And there are many streams where there are browns further downstream, but above a certain point there are none. That's because the stream is originating in an infertile geology, and further downstream flowing into a more fertile geology.

I've never fished western MD or in WV, but if there are extensive areas, including medium sized streams with only brook trout, that's because of water chemistry/geology. Low pH water.

That's why the great majority of Shenandoah Park stream mileage holds only brookies. It's not because of fisheries management. It's because water is too acidic for browns, but OK for brookies.

 

[pcray1231]

Troutbert,

There are a large number of stream sections where I have only caught brookies, to date. But a surprising number where that WAS true till I'd catch a surprising brown. Including in infertile headwaters or low pH areas.

Streams listed as allopatric too. As I said, I hesitate to say with any certainty.

 

[Fish Sticks]

There is a large mileage of streams in PA where there are only brook trout. I know of a stream that is 70 feet wide and gets up to 80F in the summer, and the only wild trout in there are native brook trout, including all its tributaries.

Again, it's an infertile watershed. There is no mine drainage there, but the pH and alkalinity are low because of the geology.

And there are very large numbers of smaller streams where the only fish are brookies. And there are many streams where there are browns further downstream, but above a certain point there are none. That's because the stream is originating in an infertile geology, and further downstream flowing into a more fertile geology.

I've never fished western MD or in WV, but if there are extensive areas, including medium sized streams with only brook trout, that's because of water chemistry/geology. Low pH water.

That's why the great majority of Shenandoah Park stream mileage holds only brookies. It's not because of fisheries management. It's because water is too acidic for browns, but OK for brookies.

Even my orange bottom, should be lifeless, AmD streams I used to only catch brookies in. I am now getting the rare brown, it’s scary. I belive some of these acid streams probably only hold brook trout but after being unpleasantly surprised a few times on a lot of em I think it’s fewer of them than I originally thought. However I think with the low level of browns their still probably good candidates to be managed for brook trout because there is deff a difference between a couple and being overrun.

 

[Fish Sticks]

There is a large mileage of streams in PA where there are only brook trout. I know of a stream that is 70 feet wide and gets up to 80F in the summer, and the only wild trout in there are native brook trout, including all its tributaries.

Again, it's an infertile watershed. There is no mine drainage there, but the pH and alkalinity are low because of the geology.

And there are very large numbers of smaller streams where the only fish are brookies. And there are many streams where there are browns further downstream, but above a certain point there are none. That's because the stream is originating in an infertile geology, and further downstream flowing into a more fertile geology.

I've never fished western MD or in WV, but if there are extensive areas, including medium sized streams with only brook trout, that's because of water chemistry/geology. Low pH water.

That's why the great majority of Shenandoah Park stream mileage holds only brookies. It's not because of fisheries management. It's because water is too acidic for browns, but OK for brookies.

Troutbert is right though the acid advantage is real though. Look what happened to these poor brookies when the AMD was cleaned up in Kratzer run in this Susquehanna river basin commission study by Tom Clark. It’s truly disturbing and fascinating. Watch 9minutes and 45 seconds in to 11 minutes 45 seconds in. It’s CRAZY . I’m still a fan of AMD remediation but this is just goes to shows how much bigger an impact brown trout have on brook trout than most people think despite the knowledge their classified as invasive species and a some what general awareness their not good for native brook trout.

 

[silverfox]

Big Run (in red) over Hammersley for sarce. I rotated Big Run so it's more or less flowing in the same direction as Hammersley.

Edit to show w/ Savage (in green) overlaid on kettle to put things in perspective.

 

[wildtrout2]

But there are streams I've fished for years and years and caught only brookies, then you find 1 little brown and it blows your mind.

I've experienced this a well. I fished a particular native stream for about 6 years, where I only ever caught brookies, then one day I caught my one and only wild tiger trout! I was flipped out, because I'd never seen, let alone caught, a wild brown on this stream.
The mystery went on for another few years, continuing to catch only natives, with me wondering how this cold be. Then, one day I caught my first ever (on this stream) wild brown. The pieces were falling into place. This native only stream was somehow home to a very small population of wild browns. I've only caught maybe 3 others since. It still remains a strong native stream though, with only the very rare wild brown. I just hope it stays this way.

 

[troutbert]

The acidity of precipitation is dropping with air pollution controls on coal burning power plants, and the closing of many coal burning plants.

Liming is being done on both acid mine drainage streams and on infertile streams without mine drainage.

These things may cause brown trout to increase in brookie strongholds.

 

[Fish Sticks]

The acidity of precipitation is dropping with air pollution controls on coal burning power plants, and the closing of many coal burning plants.

Liming is being done on both acid mine drainage streams and on infertile streams without mine drainage.

These things may cause brown trout to increase in brookie strongholds.

Absolutely, I think that downstream brown trout stockings likely play some factor into the equation. Wild fish will find there way too however the difference between 3-5 browns eventually getting erased as tiger trout or mortality vs. thousands annually stocked down stream sensing wave after wave of invaders is a much different story. I can’t believe schuyllkill county TU is placing vibert egg boxes in brook trout streams that should be illegal. I like those guys too, they are nice and very dedicated and have cleaned up a lot of AMD. But the damage that the fish stocking is brook trout in that county is VERY VERY real.

 

[silverfox]

The acidity of precipitation is dropping with air pollution controls on coal burning power plants, and the closing of many coal burning plants.

Liming is being done on both acid mine drainage streams and on infertile streams without mine drainage.

These things may cause brown trout to increase in brookie strongholds.

I wrestle with this personally. Especially now that cold stream is reclassified as Class A brown trout. We're trying to help in Moshannon but I'm concerned we might ultimately do more damage to the brook trout population by improving the water. Without any mechanism or interest in addressing the biotic issue, it may threaten the ST population ultimately.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Troutbert is right though the acid advantage is real though. Look what happened to these poor brookies when the AMD was cleaned up in Kratzer run in this Susquehanna river basin commission study by Tom Clark. It’s truly disturbing and fascinating. Watch 9minutes and 45 seconds in to 11 minutes 45 seconds in. It’s CRAZY . I’m still a fan of AMD remediation but this is just goes to shows how much bigger an impact brown trout have on brook trout than most people think despite the knowledge their classified as invasive species and a some what general awareness their not good for native brook trout.

Example: look at the monster brown in the picture to link for the video in my post. Look at those wavy spots, that pattern is very typical for PAFB fish in my experience despite much of phenotype being not genotype overall. So that monster brown that consumed all those brookies in the study and invaded after AMD removal is either directly from a hatchery or has not to distant hatchet parents.

 

[silverfox]

updated the Big Run (Red)/Savage(Green)/Kettle map to include the other fork on the SE of Big Run for Sarce. That pretty much includes all the public lands for that watershed. There's another fork further north that is technically all part of this watershed, but its all on private land as far as I know.

 

[sarce]

updated the Big Run (Red)/Savage(Green)/Kettle map to include the other fork on the SE of Big Run for Sarce. That pretty much includes all the public lands for that watershed. There's another fork further north that is technically all part of this watershed, but its all on private land as far as I know.

View attachment 1641224939

I'm pretty shocked USR is still larger than the red. No wonder its brookie pop exploded when they started protecting it and doing habitat work on tribs.

Thanks for the overlay!

 

[wildtrout2]

Example: look at the monster brown in the picture to link for the video in my post. Look at those wavy spots, that pattern is very typical for PAFB fish in my experience despite much of phenotype being not genotype overall. So that monster brown that consumed all those brookies in the study and invaded after AMD removal is either directly from a hatchery or has not to distant hatchet parents.

I couldn't agree more. With those elongated spots, that brown has hatchery written all over it. Just a big holdover. IMO

 

[Fish Sticks]

I couldn't agree more. With those elongated spots, that brown has hatchery written all over it. Just a big holdover. IMO

Yup that was my thought too, a lot of the wild browns In schuyllkill county I find edging up into some acidic brookie streams look like that. And there are abundant stocking (private and commission) downstream.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I couldn't agree more. With those elongated spots, that brown has hatchery written all over it. Just a big holdover. IMO

I first suspected they were wild but now I think their just clean stocked fish or F1 “wild” fish

 

[troutbert]

As precipitation becomes less acid, the negative side is that it allow brown trout to move further up into brookie strongholds.

But the positive side is that it may allow brook trout to move upstream into areas they don't currently occupy. In these infertile watersheds, the far upper ends of the streams typically have no fish of any kind, because the water is too infertile there even for brook trout.

A stream in NC PA that was known as a good trout streams years ago, in the 1940s and 1950s, now holds only a few brookies in about the lower 100 yards, because of acid precipitation. There was no mining in the watershed. If precipitation gets less acid, it may allow brookies to re-colonize that stream.

Less acid precipitation should increase trout populations overall (as well as benefit lots of other animals and plants.) How that may play out in the brookie/brown distribution is hard to say.