Line weight

[klingy]

I have seen that some folks use a weight or two higher line than the rod they are using is rated for (i.e. 5wt. line on a 4wt. rod). I am going to be getting new line for my 3wt. outfit, and was wondering - what are the advantages/disadvantages to this approach? I'm guessing 4wt. line may load/cast a little easier, but do you lose anything by doing this (besides room on your spool)? Any insight would be helpful.

 

[afishinado]

klingy wrote:
I have seen that some folks use a weight or two higher line than the rod they are using is rated for (i.e. 5wt. line on a 4wt. rod). I am going to be getting new line for my 3wt. outfit, and was wondering - what are the advantages/disadvantages to this approach? I'm guessing 4wt. line may load/cast a little easier, but do you lose anything by doing this (besides room on your spool)? Any insight would be helpful.

Klingy,

Here's my take. A 4wt rod is built by the rodmaker to cast a 4wt line which weighs (the line) 120gr @ 30' (30' is the standard measurement used weigh the line and rate it - not necessarily the optimum casting amount of line!). With that being said, 30' of 4wt line is roughly equivalent in weight to 25' of 5wt line (which weighs 140gr @ 30'). If you are making a lot of shorter casts on a smaller stream, you may find a 5wt line works better for you to load the rod and cast well.

Now, given the same set-up, if you are casting 30 or more feet of line (remember that's 30' of fly line, add in the length of the leader/and and the length of the rod and your close to a 50' cast) on your 4 wt rod, the 5wt line may be a little heavy for that purpose and not cast very well. It really depends on the rod.

For real long distance casting some may even chose to underline the rod to achieve distance.

With some rods or in some situations under or overlining works best.

The long and short - give it a try and see how it casts.

 

[sandfly]

Afish is right on. most people over line for 2 reasons. Buying a rod that is to fast for their casting style and as Afish said to be able to load a rod a shorter distance. 90% of casters could cast a line meant for the rod if they learned to cast right. overling is a way to compansate for poor casting.

 

[WildTigerTrout]

sandfly, I agree 100% about overlining. Fast action rods seem to be the big thing. Guys will buy one because it's the best LOL. Then they find out it cast better with heavier line. Just buy a slower rod to begin with!!!

 

[Wildfish]

"overling is a way to compensate for poor casting"

I have to disagree with this.

"Guys will buy one because it's the best LOL. Then they find out it cast better with heavier line. Just buy a slower rod to begin with"

Also with this.

Fast rods simply will not load properly for super short casts, nor are they ideal for extra light tippet. However, fast rods are 1) widely available and 2) cheap. I've heard they're cheaper because they use lower quality graphite that is rolled more. I have no idea if this is true--maybe they're just more popular. The point is, try finding a decent, slow, mid-flex rod with a Cabelas or Bass Pro warranty for $100. Probably not going to happen. So if you want to fish the rod you can get for $100 in tight quarters you're going to have to overline it.

Overlining is also a great way to adapt rods to different conditions. Again, if you're on a budget just get an extra spool. Fish the fast rod with the "correct" line weight on a big stream, then switch the spool to a heavier line for small streams.

I have a cabelas traditional II 8' 5w that was much too fast for a standard 5w line. But the Rio Grand, which is slightly higher weight, helps it load properly with shorter casts in tighter quarters.

I think it comes down to how fast the rod is, what you're using it for, and what you expect overlining to do for you. Wanting to overline doesn't make you a bad caster, nor does it mean you have the wrong rod. It's just one of many techniques for getting the most out of what we have.

 

[afishinado]

Wildfish wrote:
[color=CC0000]"overling is a way to compensate for poor casting"

I have to disagree with this.

"Guys will buy one because it's the best LOL. Then they find out it cast better with heavier line. Just buy a slower rod to begin with"

Also with this.

Fast rods simply will not load properly for super short casts, nor are they ideal for extra light tippet. However, fast rods are 1) widely available and 2) cheap. I've heard they're cheaper because they use lower quality graphite that is rolled more. I have no idea if this is true--maybe they're just more popular. The point is, try finding a decent, slow, mid-flex rod with a Cabelas or Bass Pro warranty for $100. Probably not going to happen. So if you want to fish the rod you can get for $100 in tight quarters you're going to have to overline it. [/color]

[color=009900]Overlining is also a great way to adapt rods to different conditions. Again, if you're on a budget just get an extra spool. Fish the fast rod with the "correct" line weight on a big stream, then switch the spool to a heavier line for small streams.

I have a cabelas traditional II 8' 5w that was much too fast for a standard 5w line. But the Rio Grand, which is slightly higher weight, helps it load properly with shorter casts in tighter quarters.

I think it comes down to how fast the rod is, what you're using it for, and what you expect overlining to do for you. Wanting to overline doesn't make you a bad caster, nor does it mean you have the wrong rod. It's just one of many techniques for getting the most out of what we have.[/color]

I agree with Wildfish completely. The red stuff is bunk / myth and I completely agree with the green stuff.

 

[jdaddy]

I am confused. You agree with him completely, but you have highlighted half his post in the color red and say it is bunk/myth. I do agree with YOU that the red stuff is bunk/myth and the green is right on.

Regrading the "cheap rods are fast" theory, I believe that to be the complete opposite. Fast/ultra fast is in style now. Look at the majority of the premium rods out there. Sage TCX, St Croix Legend Elite, Winston BIIMX, etc are all their most expensive models and their fasts line of rods.

 

[Bruno]

I have found some rods preform better overlined and others underlined. Try a few and find out what is best for you.

Sandfly - it is not poor casting.

 

[afishinado]

jdaddy wrote:
I am confused. You agree with him completely, but you have highlighted half his post in the color red and say it is bunk/myth. I do agree with YOU that the red stuff is bunk/myth and the green is right on.

Regrading the "cheap rods are fast" theory, I believe that to be the complete opposite. Fast/ultra fast is in style now. Look at the majority of the premium rods out there. Sage TCX, St Croix Legend Elite, Winston BIIMX, etc are all their most expensive models and their fasts line of rods.

JD,

Wildfish posted that the red stuff is bunk too.

Anyway I hate most fast action rods...but I'm a fast action afishinado!?! Most FA rods suck (especially the cheaper ones) and are only suitable for longer casts or tomato stakes. Pick up a rod and peel off a length of fly line equal to the length of the rod and cast it. Keep casting and lengthening the line until you get out at least to the running line. If the rod doesn't cast well at all those distances, put it back in the rack.

A Sage XP or ZA casts well short. medium. and long. Short from the tip, medium into the middle, and long into the lower third of the rod. The Sage TCX mentioned above is a limited tool and just suitable for long range work. The St. Croix Legend Elite is a decent fast action rod as is the Winston BIIMX. The Loomis Streamdance GLX HLS is good too, IMO. I think TFO rods are fast action decent for the money, but are a little on the heavy side. In another thread it was mentioned that Sage was reintroducing the XP taper in a mid-priced rod (the VXP) this fall. I would check that one out.

Anyway, rod choice (and action) is a personal choice but many guys think fast-action rods suck because they never cast one that was designed well using high modulus graphite, or they just don't really like faster rods. Each to his own.

I will say there are many more choices of decent medium action rods out there if you prefer that type of action.

 

[gutcutter]

o.k
why do you want a 3wt rod? if it is for the "steath"? then use a 3wt line and learn how to cast it at short and long distances.
if you can't do that, but you still want a 3wt then buy a 2 wt and overline it.
the problem with most flyfishermen is that they see a rod, want it and then buy it on the internet for what they believe is a cheaper price. and they buy a line for that outfit the same way. they buy it without ever having casted it and then start the scramble of which new line will work better.
if you check out an outfit at a fly shop, you can not only cast the rod, you can cast it with different line weights and even with different brands of line to make an informed choice. it actually works out cheaper that way.
the fly shop sells the rod at msrp and the internet shops can not mark down an "in production" fly rod or the manufacturer will drop them as a dealer (if they find out). you can find cheap price close-outs on rods that the manufacturer stops producing.
but you should still cast it with different lines first

 

[jdaddy]

Oh, I thought you were disputing the red text. I disagree that fast = cheap and think if you look at all major brands fast = $.

Right now I prefer Legend Ultra, Winston WT, Legend Elite then Bllmx. I guess I am a poor caster and better suited for the slower of the fast actions.

 

[PennKev]

if you check out an outfit at a fly shop, you can not only cast the rod, you can cast it with different line weights and even with different brands of line to make an informed choice. it actually works out cheaper that way

I always see comments like this and wonder which fly shop it is that has this plethora of test-cast lines for customers to try out. Most I've been to usually just have one or two test reels/lines for each line weight and would get a chuckle out a request to test cast lines from their store inventory.

Kev

 

[Wildfish]

Just to be clear JDaddy, I don't think all fast rods are cheap--I think that most cheap rods are fast. Which makes it tough to find a cheap, new rod with a warranty that has a nice med action.

 

[jdaddy]

wildfish, fair enough. The only "lower end" store brand I have dealt with the the Cableas LST which is certainly med-fast and a great deal imo. I wonder why we see the opposite case in Sage, Winston, St Croix, Scott, etc? Orvis is the only major company I am aware of that offers a choice of actions in their top end line.

 

[Wildfish]

Aren't the entry-level Winstons and Sage's fast (that is, the Vapor (now Passport) for Winston and the Vantage for Sage)? The Scott A3, which I'm hoping to buy in the near future, is med-fast. To my knowledge there aren't any $150 rods that are super slow. But maybe I haven't looked hard enough.

I assume fast rods are easier to learn with. The loops are tighter so there are fewer mistakes. But that doesn't mean everyone who wants to spend $150 on a rod is a beginner, which leaves poor grad students like me stuck with broom sticks. And (to return to the topic) why I like rio grand line and overlining in general.

 

[GreenWeenie]

A true "classic" fast action rod has a soft tip (about 18 - 24 inches) and then gets progressively stronger to the butt. You will see older bamboo rods labeled fast action, dry fly action or progressive action. This is a true fast action rod in the classic sense.

Medium action is bascally the same except the softer tip extends a bit further into the mid section.

Slow action actually has a stiffer tip that fast and medium action but a more supple mid section and then a stiffer butt, hence the term parabolic action.

Today the problem is fast action rods have become to mean super stiff. Cheap rods are rolled with heavier mandrels and that causes the the tip to be stiff and everything else to be even stiffer. This is the main reason why overlining is necessary - rods labeled 5 weight are really 6 if not 7 weight. Most fast action rods today are great distance casting rods but terrible fishing rods.

A high quality (read $$$) fast action rod will load and cast properly with the rated line at close and distances easily up to 50 feet. Cheaper rods probably won't.

 

[jdaddy]

Aren't the entry-level Winstons and Sage's fast (that is, the Vapor (now Passport) for Winston and the Vantage for Sage)?

The Ascent and Vapor were both Chinese made models that are being replaced as they were pure garbage. The Ascent is a medium action rod, however it is terrbile. Breaks very easily (I have never broken a rod other than Ascents before and I am talking about breaking 7 1/2ft 3wts on small fish). Redsun from this forum has the Vapor and on the last trip we noticed that every single ferrule is cracking like crazy. First big fish he hits is going to destroy that rod. I don't know anything about the Sage entry level.

Edit: Now that I think about it my 8wt is a Sage entry level Launch which is a medium action rod.

 

[gutcutter]

pennkev
i am not advertising for any one shop, but international angler in robinson - bit of a drive from new castle - has this available to a customer. i have thrown different "house" lines on my rods and on on shop rods and have made choices based on how they perform on my rod with my casting style.
and i think you owe it to the shop to buy it there for this service that you don't get from the internet.
as far as cabela's - i have seen guys in the retail shops (at least at the wheeling store) out in the lot allowing customers to try before they buy.
would you buy a car with out test driving it?

 

[jdaddy]

Car = $20,000 Line = $70 Some risks can be assumed. I doubt you are seeing customers at Cabelas trying 5 wt Rio Grand, Rio Trout LT, SA Sharkskin, SA Sharkskin GPX, SA GPX, SA Trout, Airflo, etc, etc, etc. It is not reasonable to assume or ask a shop to open 5 packs of whatever weight and nick up all those lines. I think a little research and customer reviews goes a long way in finding an appropriate line for your rod.

Interesting note on over lining. The St Croix Legend Elite has a rod usage and safety tag on it.

"Do not exceed the recommended line rating for your rod. By now you should know why."

There is no discussion of over lining above or below that "rule" so I am not sure what the "By now you should know why" is put on there. Besides, how much over lining is too much over lining? SA GPX and Rio Grand are both a half size heavier than advertised.

 

[gutcutter]

i'll take the $70 if you just want to throw it away.