Leader length limit

[wbranch]

I've been having a conversation with a Euro nymph guy who is a practitioner of Czech, Polish, Spanish, French and whatever nymph technique known to mankind. He tells me he routinely uses leaders from 30' - 50' long. Would leaders that long be legal in PA? Thanks.

 

[moon1284]

It would be legal everywhere except ffo waters. I think the leader limit is 18'.

 

[Dave_W]

Here in PA, waters managed as Fly Fishing Only have a leader length limit of either 17' or 18 feet.

 

[Swattie87]

Round here we call that "dirty pinning." Or even worse, "spincasting." Your buddy isn't a yakker is he?

Can some please break down for me the subtle differences between those styles of nymphing. I've been looking to become more cosmopolitan in my nymphing. Much appreciated.

 

[salmonoid]

This is what Dave references and is the only leader limit I am aware of (applies to FFO).

§ 65.14. Catch and release fly-fishing only.

(a) The Executive Director, with the approval of the Commission, may designate waters as catch and release fly-fishing only. The designation of waters as catch and release fly-fishing only shall be effective when the waters are so posted after publication of a notice of designation in the Pennsylvania Bulletin.

(b) It is unlawful to fish in waters designated and posted as catch and release fly-fishing only except in compliance with the following requirements:

(1) Fishing may be done with artificial flies and streamers constructed of natural or synthetic materials so long as all flies are constructed in a normal fashion with components wound on or about the hook or hooks. Use or possession of any other lures or substances is prohibited.

(2) Fishing shall be done with tackle which is limited to fly rods, fly reels and fly line with a maximum of 18 feet in leader material or monofilament line attached. Spinning, spincast and casting rods and reels are prohibited.

(3) No trout may be killed or had in possession.

(4) Open to fishing year-round.

(5) Taking of baitfish or fishbait is prohibited.

(6) Wading is permitted unless otherwise posted.

(7) A current trout/salmon permit is required.

(c) Notwithstanding the requirements of this section an angler in a boat may possess bait and fish caught in compliance with the seasons, sizes and creel limits in effect for the water from which taken, provided that the boat angler floats through the catch and release fly-fishing only area without stopping or engaging in the act of fishing or the boat angler puts in or takes out his boat at an access point within the catch and release fly-fishing only area.

 

[ryanh]

Why would anyone want a 50 foot leader? Probably casts like crap.

 

[afishinado]

wbranch wrote:
I've been having a conversation with a Euro nymph guy who is a practitioner of Czech, Polish, Spanish, French and whatever nymph technique known to mankind. He tells me he routinely uses leaders from 30' - 50' long. Would leaders that long be legal in PA? Thanks.

In the past, they Euro guys used long mono leaders, essentially a mono rig. The current rule change allows the leader length to be twice the length of the rod - 20' +.

Many comp guys have gone to very light fly lines to compensate for the rule change.

 

[wbranch]

Thank you Salmonoid. I frequent another forum and there has been a OP talking about all sorts of Euro nymphing techniques and I got into to it to be a ball buster mainly because I don't Euro nymph and while I am sure it is a great way to catch more fish I have absolutely zero interest in learning anything about it.

 

[dano]

wbranch,
I sum it up to;
Those that enjoy catching as many fish as they can with a fly vs. those who just like the sport of fly fishing.
As for me, I enjoy casting and controlling a fly line.

 

[Dave_W]

I can remember watching Joe Humphreys in the early 1980s extolling the advantage of using a fly reel filled with monofilament rather than fly lines and leaders for nymph fishing. This was long before anyone had heard of the faddish Euro techniques we hear about now.

There are certain advantages that mono provides with respect to sensitivity and thin diameter sinking qualities that can make nymph fishing more effective.

 

[afishinado]

Dave_W wrote:
I can remember watching Joe Humphreys in the early 1980s extolling the advantage of using a fly reel filled with monofilament rather than fly lines and leaders for nymph fishing. This was long before anyone had heard of the faddish Euro techniques we hear about now.

There are certain advantages that mono provides with respect to sensitivity and thin diameter sinking qualities that can make nymph fishing more effective.

Back-in-the-day many of the old-timers used a fly rod spooled up with mono on their reel to fish bait as well as flies.

The comps now disallow all-mono fishing, but unless you fish competitively you can try anything at all, except in FFing only areas.

Is fishing a fly with mono line only fly-fishing?....probably not for most FFers.

But also back-in-the-day there was another saying and philosophy of life......."if it feels good - do it!"

 

[BradyS]

I think one advantage to having a leader length 30-50' is if you're "euro nymphing," and catch a big fish that goes for a run you the chances of a knot knot traveling through the guides drops. I'll try that leader length from time to time and it works for me.

 

[moon1284]

The mono only on a fly reel approach is the preferred method of the best great lakes trib snaggers. I call that eastern European nymphing. The French prefer a centerpin reel. I call that French nymphing.

 

[SteveG]

The reason for the extremely long leaders prior to the 20' regulation was because the mass of a flyline would pull the leader down the guides when the rod tip is elevated.

 

[afishinado]

I choose to fly-fish, but I have no problem with anyone using the tackle or fishing method they enjoy, other than anglers using bait employing the "letum swaller it" technique.

But other than that, get out there, fish, and have fun however you choose to do it.

 

[Swattie87]

afishinado wrote:
other than anglers using bait employing the "letum swaller it" technique.

I don't have much of a problem with that even, as long as they're planning on harvesting the fish they catch and there's not sublegal (typically wild) fish being tossed back. Or their limit has already been caught and they continue "C&R" fishing, or culling size on their stringer, using that method. Otherwise, in a stocked stream with no wild fish where harvest is allowed, if the fish is gonna get bonked anyway, not sure it matters.

I was watching a YT vid the other day of some guys trying to delicately land salmon they were planning on keeping for the table that evening. Several got off at their feet because of it. While I appreciate good C&R technique, if you're planning on keeping them, it matters little how delicately you land them.

 

[wbranch]

dano wrote;

As for me, I enjoy casting and controlling a fly line.

Me too, but I think it is neat that there are new techniques out there for guys who like to learn more and improve their fly fishing skills. I nymph so very seldom anyway that learning, or even showing interest, in another method isn't going to happen.

As another poster mentioned when I used to fish the Salmon River back in the 1980's guys had already perfected methods of "fly fishing" to lob huge amounts of lead to snag and assist lining those big salmon.

They removed all the tapered fly line and were loading their reels with that super skinny level running line guys used to loop to loop to shooting heads before the advent of specialized fly lines. They would nail knot a tapered leader to the end of the level line and add a barrel swivel. On one end of the barrel swivel they would attach a short piece of mono and a snap and attach a 1" - 3" long Slinkie (lead shot filled shoe lace material melted shut on either end) then add the tippet to which they attached a fly or whatever other hook they were using. They would strip off 30'-40' of the level line and lob the whole shebang out towards the river in a nice arc. No traditional fly casting knowledge required.

 

[Bamboozle]

Tenkara IS legal in PA FFO areas even though people like me use level lines, which is nothing more than fluorocarbon fishing line.

Add to that a leader of several feet and you have "all fishing line" in a FFO section in excess of the "18' foot rule".

The logic for allowing Tenkara in PA FFO section is, and I quote from an official from PFBC Law Enforcement when the question was posed by the owner of Tenkara USA:

“The regulations were written long-ago with the traditional practice of fly-fishing in mind. The intent of the regulation is to restrict fishing to use of tied flies as the terminal tackle. The style of fishing that you describe would fall under the definition of “fly-fishing” for our purposes. Thank you for contacting the Commission”.

I have no basic for this assumption but I have a feeling the same attitude would be taken by PFBC Law Enforcement regarding Czech/Euro nymphing as well.

 

[FarmerDave]

BradyS wrote:
I think one advantage to having a leader length 30-50' is if you're "euro nymphing," and catch a big fish that goes for a run you the chances of a knot knot traveling through the guides drops. I'll try that leader length from time to time and it works for me.

How you you figure... I'm thinking it would actually increase.

If I use a 9 foot leader and 10 feet of line out... If the fish takes any run, the leader to line knot is already out past the tip guide regardless of line length.

If I were using a 10 foot rod, and a 30 foot leader, with 10 feet out, that knot is coming off the reel with a 10 foot run.

 

[afishinado]

Trout Fishing Regulations 2017
CATCH AND RELEASE FLY-FISHING ONLY

Fishing may be done with artificial flies and streamers constructed of natural or synthetic materials, so long as all flies are constructed in a normal fashion with components wound on or about the hook. Fishing must be done with tackle limited to fly rods, fly reels and fly line with a maximum of 18 feet in leader material or monofilament line attached. Spinning, spincast and casting rods and reels are prohibited. Anything other than these items is prohibited.


The 18' rule is still part of the regulation. I wouldn't violate it hoping the WCO is not going to enforce it.

Link to source (2017 PFBC Summary Book):
http://pfbc.pa.gov/fishpub/summaryad/catchreleaseffo.html

Also, lines for Tenkara rods are usually less than 18'. Some are furled and some are more like traditional fly lines and mono tippets are added to the end of the line usually using a tippet ring.

Tenkara 1

Tenkara 2

If not, I would shorten it to comply if fishing in a FFO area, no big deal.

Also, most Euro guys fish leaders 18' or less.

If they are too long ⇩