Leader Length in FFO Waters

[troutbert]

skeeter wrote:

My leader is technically from my sighter (a 1' section of bright mono used to track) down to the flies.

Its a running line used in skagit which is technically "fly fishing".

You said "technically."

Twice in one post.

REPENT!!!

 

[mushumatt]

How can one say one style of fishing is not like the other. I do remember when articulated flies where becoming popular and everyone was saying how it’s not fly fishing. Every new style of anything obviously deals with apprehension. Really if we want to all be purist then let’s all only fish by British chalk stream rules. Only upstream dry fly action to sighted fish.

But in all honesty my leader is following fips rules, so 18’ is basically where it’s at. When allowed I would much rather fish a 20-30’ leader. 15’ 15lb, 10’ 12lb 1’ amnesia. The longer leader just allows you to fish farther away with more control and less sag.

 

[PennKev]

First guys thought fishing with "strike indicators" wasn't fly fishing, now guys who use indicators all the time think euro nymphing isn't fly fishing....


Wuhhhhhhhht??????

 

[Swattie87]

Aren’t there bigger problems in the world to worry about? Like guys using spinning gear. Or kayakers? What about people walking their dog along a public stream!?!?

We’ll ultimately need to keep up relations with the flatbrim comp centerpin insta-brahs if we want to have any chance of retaining our elite flagship status on the water.

I’ve never understood how what type of fishing gear someone else is using and enjoying bothers some folks. I don’t enjoy Rocky Road ice cream. It should be removed from the shelves in all stores! Silly, isn’t it?

 

[dano]

I get it now. Fly Fishing is all about how many fish you can catch.

 

[PennKev]

Swattie87 wrote:
I’ve never understood how what type of fishing gear someone else is using and enjoying bothers some folks. I don’t enjoy Rocky Road ice cream. It should be removed from the shelves in all stores! Silly, isn’t it?

We don't need no smarty pants coming in here and making sense!

 

[Maurice]

Swattie87 wrote:
Aren’t there bigger problems in the world to worry about? Like guys using spinning gear. Or kayakers? What about people walking their dog along a public stream!?!?

We’ll ultimately need to keep up relations with the flatbrim comp centerpin insta-brahs if we want to have any chance of retaining our elite flagship status on the water.

I’ve never understood how what type of fishing gear someone else is using and enjoying bothers some folks. I don’t enjoy Rocky Road ice cream. It should be removed from the shelves in all stores! Silly, isn’t it?

Heres the point and the problem with your analogy.

The FFO areas stated a specific gear type to be used identifying it as fly fishing. That language was to be changed to extend leader length to include the comp guy. In doing so the language to include fly reels and fly line were removed also. This could potentially allow Centerpin geat, full mono line set ups and even noodle rods and spin gear. This sets a precedent to pervert the meaning of flyfishing.

Fly fishing is the act of propelling a weightless fly using a weighted line. If you take the weight out of the line and put it in the fly it aint fly fishing anymore. I don't care if ya do it but don't try to say yer fly fishing just coz you bought a $800 Orvis 10' 3 wt to jig and pig troots up off the bottom.

So now with your analogy,

Picture if you will a Vanilla only icecream store, Then they "whoever they are" decide to sell other flavors including but not limited to Rocky Road. Should we now consider Rocky Road Vanilla or your favorite flavor? Silly isn't it?

I don;t care if folks use Czek nymphing techniques in the FFO areas but if thats wha you want make that the change. Don't change the language to allow any kind of gear. It changes the meaning of it.

 

[Swattie87]

I typically eat Chocolate Peanut Butter Swirl.

I get the technicalities of it. Whether there should be FFO's at all is a different debate and discussion, coincidentally happening in another thread right now.

Regardless, as long as there are FFO's that limit gear to whatever the reg du jour is, there will always be an incentive for the fringe gear anglers to stretch the boundaries of their gear and the reg wording to fit their chosen methods. Fishing techniques evolve over time, and this is a moving target. Relatively slowly probably, but moving nonetheless. At some point (maybe we're already there?), the line between spin and fly and centerpin and whatever gear begins to blur. Being clear with the reg wording to include what you want, and exclude what you don't is important, agree on that for sure. According to the PFBC though (the only entity that matters in this discussion), for now fishing with 18 feet or less of leader, with flies, on a fly rod and reel IS fly fishing.

Maybe the old Nascar Days of Thunder analogy will work better...There's always been a rule on how big the gas tank can be. There wasn't always (there is now) a rule on how long the fuel lines were...

I still don't really understand why it bothers folks that much. A guy Euro-nymphing in a FFO is perfectly legal provided he follows the above conditions from the reg. If he's fishing with that method, I assume he enjoys fishing that way - I don't really, FWIW, but I'm not the one fishing. Ragging on that is no different than ragging on a spin angler legally fishing lures or bait in a general regs section...In poor taste IMO, and much more a reflection on the guy doing the ragging than the guy doing the fishing.

 

[mushumatt]

If they want to conform for just the comp guys, then they should just adopt FIPS regs on leader length. 2x length of the rod, and just be done with it. I honestly don’t swap out my leader over 3’ of length.

 

[MBWCC]

There is currently no maximum length in the PA regulations (Title 30/Title 58). The regulation concerning maximum monofillament (leader) length (18') was removed after the fishing booklet was printed.

The section of the PA fishing handbook quoted in post #2 is incorrect.

 

[redietz]

The dictionary defines "fly fishing" as "the sport of fishing using a rod and an artificial fly as bait."

In spite of laws trying to limit it to whatever the tackle of the moment is, the above definition has been around for hundreds of years. It says nothing about line, leader, or reel.

If fly fisherman of 250 years ago were to try to define fly fishing by the tackle he used then, anything we're doing now (except maybe tenakara) wouldn't be fly fishing. The "winch" at the end of the rod was scorned even Walton, and there was no such thing as a leader; the horse hair line just tapered down to one or two strands at the business end. And everyone knew that rods used for fly fishing were 15 to 18 feet long.

The only constant in fly fishing has been the use of an artificial fly. It doesn't matter how it's delivered to the fish.

 

[afishinado]

MBWCC wrote:
There is currently no maximum length in the PA regulations (Title 30/Title 58). The regulation concerning maximum monofillament (leader) length (18') was removed after the fishing booklet was printed.

The section of the PA fishing handbook quoted in post #2 is incorrect.

^ Not correct according to current info on the PFBC site

Here is a quote from the regulation on FFO areas about leaders >

Fishing must be done with tackle limited to fly rods, fly
reels and fly line with a maximum of 18 feet in leader
material of monofilament line attached.

This is from the current PDF on the PFBC site from the 2019 Summary Book on page 21. If the law has actually been changed and the current site continues to post incorrect info about regulations, than shame on the PFBC, nothing they publish on there can be deemed reliable.

https://pfbc.pa.gov/fishpub/summaryad/2019summaryComplete.pdf

 

[silverfox]

afishinado wrote:

MBWCC wrote:
There is currently no maximum length in the PA regulations (Title 30/Title 58). The regulation concerning maximum monofillament (leader) length (18') was removed after the fishing booklet was printed.

The section of the PA fishing handbook quoted in post #2 is incorrect.

^ Not correct according to current info on the PFBC site

Here is a quote from the regulation on FFO areas about leaders >

Fishing must be done with tackle limited to fly rods, fly
reels and fly line with a maximum of 18 feet in leader
material of monofilament line attached.

This is from the current PDF on the PFBC site from the 2019 Summary Book on page 21. If the law has actually been changed and the current site continues to post incorrect info about regulations, than shame on the PFBC, nothing they publish on there can be deemed reliable.

https://pfbc.pa.gov/fishpub/summaryad/2019summaryComplete.pdf

I actually think MBWCC is right. According to the current PA Code, the 18 foot rule is removed.

PA Code: https://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chapter65/s65.14.html

Here is the bulletin where it was removed (Section E);
https://www.pabulletin.com/secure/data/vol48/48-12/439.html

So apparently the current summary booklet is wrong.

 

[afishinado]

silverfox wrote:

afishinado wrote:

MBWCC wrote:
There is currently no maximum length in the PA regulations (Title 30/Title 58). The regulation concerning maximum monofillament (leader) length (18') was removed after the fishing booklet was printed.

The section of the PA fishing handbook quoted in post #2 is incorrect.

^ Not correct according to current info on the PFBC site

Here is a quote from the regulation on FFO areas about leaders >

Fishing must be done with tackle limited to fly rods, fly
reels and fly line with a maximum of 18 feet in leader
material of monofilament line attached.

This is from the current PDF on the PFBC site from the 2019 Summary Book on page 21. If the law has actually been changed and the current site continues to post incorrect info about regulations, than shame on the PFBC, nothing they publish on there can be deemed reliable.

https://pfbc.pa.gov/fishpub/summaryad/2019summaryComplete.pdf

I actually think MBWCC is right. According to the current PA Code, the 18 foot rule is removed.

PA Code: https://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chapter65/s65.14.html

Here is the bulletin where it was removed (Section E);
https://www.pabulletin.com/secure/data/vol48/48-12/439.html

So apparently the current summary booklet is wrong.

^ Thanks.....so be it.

No addendum or notice of current rule changes anywhere to be found on the PFBC site.

How would one actually know that any rule or regulation has been changed?

And "call them" is not an answer since why would anyone call if they had no idea something has changed in the first place.

Either an addendum of rule changes should be published or any changes in rules and regulations should take effect the following license year.

 

[jacob]

The centerpin and spin gear comments don’t hold too much weight. The law still clearly requires fly rod, fly reel, fly line, and flies. They just removed the restriction on leader length, which I don’t agree with entirely.

Like someone else mentioned I’d personally like to see the law just adopt leaders being restricted to 2x the length of the rod - that would alleviate concerns/loopholes of some smarty pants putting two feet of fly line behind a mono rig. Also, it would be in line with international regulations for competitions recognized as being fly-fishing.

I think that would be a good compromise and also a straightforward regulation that is easy to understand.

Also, I can understand the sentiment that the euro game is less “pure” than casting a fly line traditionally- however, you should get rid of all your split shot, indicators, nymphs, eyed hooks, etc and should probably be using a silk line or something too with a cat gut leader and swinging teams of wets or whatever on bamboo.

But I do agree that there does need to be a defined line in the FFO regs that restrict leader length. 18’ is a bit restrictive, but no reg is not restrictive enough.

 

[redietz]

jacob wrote:

Also, I can understand the sentiment that the euro game is less “pure” than casting a fly line traditionally- however, you should get rid of all your split shot, indicators, nymphs, eyed hooks, etc and should probably be using a silk line or something too with a cat gut leader and swinging teams of wets or whatever on bamboo.

Silk lines and bamboo didn't come in until the 1800's. If you really want to be traditional, you need to a rod with an ash butt section and a willow tip -- no longer than 18 feet. Your line needs to be horsehair. Gut as a leader material (silk worm gut, not cat) likewise is a 19th century innovation. You'd need to get rid of leaders altogether and have the line taper down. And you need to lose the reel.

Shot would ok, though. It's always been associated with fly fishing.

Your point, though, is valid and the same as I was trying to make in a previous post: what we perceive as "traditional" fly fishing has changed over time, and will continue to do so.

 

[dano]

redietz wrote:
The dictionary defines "fly fishing" as "the sport of fishing using a rod and an artificial fly as bait."

I think the term "Artificial" is too restrictive.

 

[jacob]

Gut as a leader material (silk worm gut, not cat) likewise is a 19th century innovation.

I know it’s not actually cat gut (thankfully no kitties were harmed), but I have heard old timers refer to the old silkworm gut leaders generally as catgut... not sure why exactly, but maybe because “catgut” was/is an old school cordlike material made from the intestines of sheep or lamb - I’m not sure if it was ever used for fly fishing. I suppose the silkworm leaders were reminiscent of it so the term was used more as a generalization?

 

[afishinado]

Regardless of what materials are used for rods, reels or lines, the essence of fly-fishing is the ability to cast the weight of the line rather than the weight of the fly and/or anything attached to the line.

 

[silverfox]

I have to say, I've been doing this "mono rig" thing for a little while now and it feels dirty. Especially with heavily weighted sculpins. You basically cast like a spinning rod and shoot the line using the weight of the fly. Super effective, but it makes me feel like a cheater.

No doubt it's pushing the boundaries of "fly fishing". In all honesty, the euro nymphing thing could be done more effectively with a free spinning line holder and a long rod. It would be even more effective, but even more removed from "fly fishing".

I think it comes down to whether you prioritize the challenge of fly fishing over catch rate. If the later is your primary concern, then use whatever you want as long as it's legal. Just be honest with yourself about the techniques you're using.