Lancaster County stream improvements

[larkmark]

troutbert-If stream improvement becomes "profitable" then we will see every stream in the county restored!

 

[Mike]

There is no market for such material. In both projects of which I am aware sediments could only be trucked to areas of high ground that were near-by. In one case the property was an adjacent farm and in the other it was a farm about a half mile away.

 

[troutbert]

Mike wrote:
There is no market for such material. In both projects of which I am aware sediments could only be trucked to areas of high ground that were near-by. In one case the property was an adjacent farm and in the other it was a farm about a half mile away.

There is a large market for topsoil, potting soil, for landscaping, nurseries, for homeowner projects, etc.

Why could legacy sediment not be used for that? Is there some negative ingredient in the legacy sediment that prevents that?

The people who produce such topsoil products, where do they get it? Do they just "mine" it from prime farmland, leaving a ruined landscape with its soil stripped away?

 

[larkmark]

It sounds like (from the video) this should be high quality soil, high in nutrients?

 

[Tups]

The sediment, bedload might be a better term, is nothing like you might buy for 8$ per bag at Lowe’s. The Scott’s bagged material is primarily organic material excavated from peat bogs in the NE. The legacy sediment is silt and clay, high in phosphorus and nitrogen but little else. It lacks any great value as topsoil, so the Limit of Economic Haul comes into play. It’s not long before the cost to transport exceeds the Economic return on the material.

 

[larkmark]

Decided to check out the improvement project on Brubaker Run in Lancaster County this evening. The improved section runs between Running Pump Rd and Rohrerstown Rd. The entire area there is built up with shopping centers and warehouses. The creek looks interesting from a distance. Up close it is not much to see. Little life was in the very shallow faster moving water connecting deeper areas that had a few minnows and very few crayfish. The stream
bed had the look of a storm sewer which is what it truly has become. No signs of the once abundant muskrats. No signs of the once abundant various sunfish or chubs or suckers. The improvement work is really just interconnected low areas and retention ponds to collect runoff adjacent to the newly created stream course. I noticed that there was very little planting of trees. Some of the plants were the type of native milkweed and grasses and cattail I remembered from years ago but much of it was what, to me, appears to be non native plants. Areas that can be seen from the roadways seemed to be planted with attractive flowers and plants , nothing I have seen growing there before. It was actually sad to see what has become of a once beloved place.

 

[moon1284]

troutbert wrote:

Mike wrote:
There is no market for such material. In both projects of which I am aware sediments could only be trucked to areas of high ground that were near-by. In one case the property was an adjacent farm and in the other it was a farm about a half mile away.

There is a large market for topsoil, potting soil, for landscaping, nurseries, for homeowner projects, etc.

Why could legacy sediment not be used for that? Is there some negative ingredient in the legacy sediment that prevents that?

The people who produce such topsoil products, where do they get it? Do they just "mine" it from prime farmland, leaving a ruined landscape with its soil stripped away?

"Legacy" sediment is much different than topsoil. In order for it to be used for topsoil it would have to be excavated and staged (figure $15/cy on the very low end. Then it would have to be sampled and analyzed to make sure it is clean. If your talking 500CY of total sediment, figure $2.25/cy. Then it would need an ag analysis (negligible cost). Then the sediment would need to be amended so it would grow grass, etc. Add another 10-20 cents a CY for that. Then you'd either need to bag it and deliver it to a store on a truck. At 22 tons per truck (roughly a legal load) and $500 for the trucking you're at another $22.75/cy. Or if you send it out in dump trucks your at 7-8 bucks a CY (and that is at the mercy of fuel prices).

Add all that up and your cost on the low end for bulk delivery of topsoil is $26/CY for what most likely is a low quality topsoil. High quality bulk delivery of screened topsoil can be up to around $50/cy. Low quality unscreened topsoil can be anywhere from $18 to $30/cy.

Even if you get the full $30, your only making $4/CY. 1000cys is a lot of sediment from a brook trout stream and your profit is only 4k.

As far as topsoil being "mined" from prime farmland, I guess sometimes that is the case. More often though, topsoil is generated during development activities, and it is tested, transported, screened, amended, and re-sold.

Mike's description above of hauling sediment short distances is much less expensive and more cost effective then trying to sell sediment as topsoil. In reality, sediment alone is good for next to nothing. It is all fines, it stinks, and it's not a good medium to grow anything. There is a lot of work required to make it useful.

 

[troutbert]

moon1284 wrote:

In reality, sediment alone is good for next to nothing. It is all fines, it stinks, and it's not a good medium to grow anything. There is a lot of work required to make it useful.

Trees grow well on legacy sediment.

In many places trees have come in on their on in legacy sediment.

And above the McCoy Access on Spring Creek, the trees you see growing there are on legacy sediment.

On the left side looking up, that was planted by an outfit hired by Clearwater Conservancy and the survival is very high and the growth rate is very good.

On the right side it was planted by TU volunteers, using smaller tree stock. The survival was not quite as good, but still decent. And there are volunteer trees coming in as well.

The big black willow trees on the right side downstream from the bend at the gas station grew on the legacy sediment before the dam was removed.

The Stroud stream research place did a study on whether planted trees would grow on legacy sediment and found that they grow very well. I heard some people involved in buffers kind of chuckling that they even did a study about this, because they already knew this because they had seen it in many places.

The narrator calls it loam, and I think that's right. Lancaster County is famous as one of the most productive farmland areas in the world. Maybe if they marketed it as Lancaster County Legacy Soil they could get a good price.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

There is much difference in growing trees than growing marketed topsoil to be used for gardens, lawns, etc...

From the few larger projects I have been around with legacy sediment removal, I can all but assure you that any and all options for disposal of that material were considered and re sale wasn't part of the conversation. Any need for significant offsite hauling of the material has just about been a project killer due to cost.

Larkmark,

While I am not a botanist, from being around some of the larger legacy sediment removal/ floodplain restoration projects and the fact that the consultant firm promotes the Brubaker Run project, I can all but ensure you that no invasive species were planted and that the project likely involved required monitoring of atleast 5 years of the vegetation to ensure invasives did not overtake the site. You made a good observation regarding the lack of large trees. I believe there are quite a few willow and dogwoods along the stream channel, but the fact that this design approach involves removing mature trees from the riparian zone is a major point of discussion.

 

[larkmark]

lyco- All I can say about the plantings is that if I go upstream or downstream from the improved areas many of the grasses and other plants are nothing like the ones in the improved area. The things growing there are not plants I encounter in my travels on any other areas streams either. The plants look like things I have seen planted around shopping centers or developments. They may be native to the United States but they sure don't look like things I see around here. I am mainly speaking about the grasses but some of the planted flowers certainly are not wild. I also saw plenty of Honeysuckle bushes (not the vine) which I have heard is an invasive plant.

 

[troutbert]

larkmark wrote:
lyco- All I can say about the plantings is that if I go upstream or downstream from the improved areas many of the grasses and other plants are nothing like the ones in the improved area. The things growing there are not plants I encounter in my travels on any other areas streams either. The plants look like things I have seen planted around shopping centers or developments. They may be native to the United States but they sure don't look like things I see around here. I am mainly speaking about the grasses but some of the planted flowers certainly are not wild. I also saw plenty of Honeysuckle bushes (not the vine) which I have heard is an invasive plant.

Most of the grasses we typically see are non-native grasses.

That's why the native grasses look funny.

If you post some photos of the plants, someone on here can probably identify them.

Also, there is a phone app called INaturalist than identifies plants. You take a photo and it tells you the name of the plant.

The shrub honeysuckles are non-native, but they wouldn't plant them in a project like this. The birds bring the seeds, along with a dose of fertilizer.