Kettle Run Reclassification????

[JeffP]

So Lancaster online has an article about DEP's study and possible reclassifying of this important Hammer Creek Tributary. I have casually observed this stream and posted on here occasionally. From what I can see see, there have been no changes in it's watershed. It lies in Lancaster Conservancy property. It's brook trout population, from what I have seen, is in serious decline from decades ago. Why would the Fish Commission have no idea why DEP is currently studying and looking at reclassifying the stream?? Does anyone have any knowledge about what is going on here?

 

[JeffP]

FYI the article refers to Ad Crable (the author) and a Conservation District Water Specialist peering over a bridge over 322 observing small fish they believed to be brook trout. Am I missing something?? Nowhere does Kettle cross 322. It also refers to being heavily famed in it's headwaters. Nope. What stream are they talking about?

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Post link to article

 

[riverwhy]

Kettle Run in Brickerville may be in danger of reclassification from DEP [column]

Amanda Goldsmith, the Lancaster County Conservation District’s watershed specialist, and I peered over a bridge on Route 322 near Brickerville and caught sight of darting small fish in a small,

lancasteronline.com

 

[riverwhy]

At no point is there heavy agriculture in its headwaters. Do they have the wrong stream?

 

[Swattie87]

I think they’re likely talking about (or intending to anyway) Kettle Run, and the author simply confused the side road with a bridge over Kettle, near its mouth with Hammer, for 322. And/or was standing on the 322 bridge over Hammer when they observed that fish, which isn’t far upstream from Kettle’s mouth.

And I’m reasonably certain they’re discussing Hammer’s farming headwaters in Lebanon County, without clarifying that. All of Kettle’s watershed is within Lancaster County.

Short version, it’s a poorly written (and proofed) article.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Agreed a very poorly written article to provide any insight into DEPs chp 93 designation process or procedures that may result in listed impairments of a stream.

 

[Mike]

So Lancaster online has an article about DEP's study and possible reclassifying of this important Hammer Creek Tributary. I have casually observed this stream and posted on here occasionally. From what I can see see, there have been no changes in it's watershed. It lies in Lancaster Conservancy property. It's brook trout population, from what I have seen, is in serious decline from decades ago. Why would the Fish Commission have no idea why DEP is currently studying and looking at reclassifying the stream?? Does anyone have any knowledge about what is going on here?

Perhaps because such requests for PaDEP to conduct studies with the hope of reclassifying a stream often originate from private citizens or groups thereof. The PFBC AFM’s, for example, may not be aware of all such proposals or studies or in my case, because I was human, I may have forgotten about a proposal since my role wasn’t going to start until two yrs down the line once a bundle of draft reports on various waters were written by DEP and AFM’s were asked for technical reviews/comments. Likewise, even when aware of such studies, the studies take time until the formal review process begins so tracking the studies may not be a high priority when an AFM knows he’ll get the opportunity to review and comment on the draft report in the end. I would add that the studies often result in no classification change.

 

[riverwhy]

So local wants it downgraded so they can do something with the land that is currently not permitted under existing classification?

 

[wgmiller]

Here's a few of the nicer ones I've gotten from Walnut over the years. It definitely fishes better with some water in it, as it can get pretty low in the summer months. It also runs perilously close to RT 322 at spots, which could spell disaster should there be an accident with a spill into the creek. Walnut is a nice stream to incorporate with a visit to Hammer, Segloch, or other area stream, but is not a destination stream for me.

 

[Mike]

So local wants it downgraded so they can do something with the land that is currently not permitted under existing classification?

The article doesn’t say that. It’s silent on the direction that a reclassification would go.

 

[wgmiller]

I'd say over 95% of the steam is on SGL and/or land owned by the Commonwealth of PA. The only area I see that isn't on such is land is in the very headwaters, where a parcel is privately owned.

 

[JeffP]

WGMiller, thanks for the pics and the map. FYI we were talking about Kettle. I know we have talked about both these in the past. I have not seen a trout in Kettle or Walnut for a while. On Walnut about 10 years ago I saw a pod in a deeper hole near where the railing ends on the downstream side. They were clearly brookies and a couple were 10-12. It must be a trickle now. Have you fished Kettle at all in the last few years?

 

[JeffP]

The article is in the Lancaster paper today. Front page.

 

[Swattie87]

The article is in the Lancaster paper today. Front page.

The average reader won’t know two snots worth of difference.

Just nerds like us.

 

[wgmiller]

WGMiller, thanks for the pics and the map. FYI we were talking about Kettle. I know we have talked about both these in the past. I have not seen a trout in Kettle or Walnut for a while. On Walnut about 10 years ago I saw a pod in a deeper hole near where the railing ends on the downstream side. They were clearly brookies and a couple were 10-12. It must be a trickle now. Have you fished Kettle at all in the last few years?

Dear lort! I'm an idiot! 😂 Not sure how I confused Walnut with Kettle, other than they're on opposite sides of 322. Mea culpa!

At any rate, I only ever fished Kettle once and it was back in April of 2021. I caught a few small brookies, but that was it. I found the water to be skinny and lacking any good habitat to support much more than small fish.

 

[Swattie87]

Kettle is a tiny watershed - smaller than Walnut, which is already tiny, and my experience is the same on Kettle…It has Brookies (and I’ve never caught a Brown in Kettle, where I know they’re in Walnut) but generally poor habitat and it’s a PITA to fish with all the multiflora rose it has along its banks. I have zero intention to fish it again, where I would, in certain sections, fish Walnut again probably. FWIW.

 

[wgmiller]

Kettle is a tiny watershed - smaller than Walnut, which is already tiny, and my experience is the same on Kettle…It has Brookies (and I’ve never caught a Brown in Kettle, where I know they’re in Walnut) but generally poor habitat and it’s a PITA to fish with all the multiflora rose it has along its banks. I have zero intention to fish it again, where I would, in certain sections, fish Walnut again probably. FWIW.

100%. It was "one and done" for me as well, as it was a major PITA to fish, even in the early spring.

As far as landowners along its length, the upper 50% or so of Kettle falls in SGL 156, with its bottom 50% being split between private landowners and the Lancaster County Conservancy. The "better" water appeared to be in the lower stretch, but alas, yellow signs and purple paint ruled the day. I still don't think the "juice would be worth the squeeze" in the lower end either.

Lancaster County Conservancy land in light green, outlined in red.

"Lower Kettle" parcels. Mostly private, save for the LCC land.

 

[JeffP]

Dear lort! I'm an idiot! 😂 Not sure how I confused Walnut with Kettle, other than they're on opposite sides of 322. Mea culpa!

At any rate, I only ever fished Kettle once and it was back in April of 2021. I caught a few small brookies, but that was it. I found the water to be skinny and lacking any good habitat to support much more than small fish.

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That's it!!

 

[JeffP]

That's it!!

Even if the fish are small and the land is posted, it definitely pumped some brookies into Hammer in the past. About 10 years ago I crossed Kettle right at the trail and there were a bunch of small brookies (I mean a bunch!) in that hole. That was in the fall. They seem to be gone. There is a cool spot on the right branch (if you can even call it a branch) where the water comes right out of the hillside.