Kettle Creek Special Reg. Sec.

[steve98]

Why does the PFBC stock the Kettle Creek FFO section between Ole Bull Park and down stream to the Rte. 144 bridge, since it is catch and release?

Steve98

 

[Mike]

No stocking of the C&R stretch would mean hardly any fish there. It gets warm in the summer.

 

[Maurice]

steve98 wrote:
Why does the PFBC stock the Kettle Creek FFO section between Ole Bull Park and down stream to the Rte. 144 bridge, since it is catch and release?

Steve98

If I understand the question correctly you are asking why the F&BC stocks C&R areas. Correct? Because many of them are previously DHFFO areas that migrated to C&RFFO when the regs were consolidated a decade ago.

I presume your concern is that the fish die so its a waste? Is a trout stocked and enjoyed a dozen times wasted? I think not! If so we wouldn't pride ourselves in C&R on wild streams either.

Also, the C&R on Kettle starts quite a bit downstream of Ole Bull. IIRC.

 

[geebee]

does anyone ever see trout belly up in the summer. it just occurred to me that i've seen them on heavily fished stretches in the winter but never the summer.

may be its just me

 

[steve98]

So do the fish that are released die or do they survive?

If they die then why release?

If they survive then why stock?

Steve98

 

[Maurice]

steve98 wrote:
So do the fish that are released die or do they survive?

If they die then why release?

If they survive then why stock?

Steve98

Its not black and white Steve. Some die after time Some don't hold over through summer. Many do not. Kettle gets a tremendous amount of pressure.

Probably 75% of the C&RFFO areas have thermal issues that came over from the DHFFO program. I can tell you that during a good summer many hold over. At least on our watershed.

And they don't stock near the amount (less than 1/2) of a comparable section length where trout are harvested.

And not all wild trout survive handling after C&R either...

 

[RLeeP]

I don't think the section of Kettle Creek in question was ever a Delayed Harvest area. If I recall correctly (and more and more lately, that's becoming a bigger if...), that project was under the old Fish For Fun regs that allowed one fish per day of 20" or more to be harvested. Then, again if my recollections are correct, that section of Kettle Creek qualified for Class A management based on the original Operation Future surveys in the late 70's and early 80's. But it didn't stay there long, a couple or maybe three years at most and (for whatever reason) the trout population dropped precipitously and stocking resumed and the stream was managed as C&R under whatever name they gave to that program (and there have been several) at the time that stocking resumed. Anyway, the point is that I do not ever recall it being managed under DH regs. What always piqued my curiosity was how it ever qualified for Class A in the first place. There must have been a string of several cool, wet years that allowed it to do that well and then reality returned and it crashed. It was always way too big and open to maintain good year-round temps.

 

[The_Sasquatch]

Interesting questions.

There are some streams where I feel the fish would benefit from a closed summer season. They do this out west if I remember correctly. Maurice is right, some fish DO hold over, many others don't. I remember being on Kettle in July once, and the water was obviously too warm. We weren't doin' any fishing because of that, but there was a guy standing over a thermal refuse with many trout piled up on top of each other, pulling them out one after another on a yellow wet fly.

I would imagine that streams like Kettle (and maybe even the Tully) would have a better rate of hold-overs if the state closed fishing on them from say, July 1 through the end of August.

 

[foxfire]

Good point Squatch - has PA ever considered a closed summer season on certain marginal streams to assist hold-over? Seems a partial solution to the reduced/discontinued fall stockings.

 

[salmonoid]

PFBC "position" statement on thermal refuges.

 

[RLeeP]

I understand the reasoning behind a summer closure on the stream, but I'd think it would be an enforcement nightmare for the local WCO, etc and the notion would fail any reasonable cost/benefit analysis ( restorative stocking vs. increased enforcement presence). Especially given that the stream section in question is pretty close to a number of popular state parks and that in high summer, there is probably a pretty good influx of smallmouth, rock bass, etc. into the project waters. I'm also a little skeptical that such a closure would do much to conserve trout numbers through the hot months. We are not the only predator that takes advantage of thermally queued trout and I'll bet the herons/otters/mink/whatever "harvest" more trout under these conditions than anglers do.

Just a viewpoint...

 

[RLeeP]

Whoops... The Commission's "position" paper as posted details some of the same reasoning I suggested above.

 

[foxfire]

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[OldLefty]

I'm a bit confused by steve98's original question. I'd like to hear his position on stocking C&R stream sections which don't support a good population of wild trout?

I'm especially curious as to why he asks why stock hatchery trout in a C&R area if they survive after having been caught and released?

Steve98, would you please clarify for us and enlighten us as to how you feel about stocking trout in an area where anglers cannot keep these trout?

 

[The_Sasquatch]

So do they not have those issues in other states where streams are closed for portions of the year?

 

[Chaz]

In the case of MT, they are trying to protect wild trout fisheries, I get it, but considering the number of tourist fishermen and fisherwomen, It think it's dumb. In the case of the Housatonic River, they are stocked trout they are trying to protect, that I don't get.
As for Kettle Creek, into the late 90's the section of Kettle Creek in the O.P. was C & R. IT was changed after 2 surveys showed that the trout populations we're wild fish and the number of trout in the creek was down from previous estimates. The regs were changed to DHFFO. In about '05' the PFBC dropped the DHFFO designations and made them all C & R FFO. So it's gone full circle with the regs. But it doesn't change the fact that the populations of wild trout in the Lower Reaches of Kettle Creek is quite low.
.One problem is the dam at Ole Bull S.P. the other problem is the thermal issues begin above Rauch Rd about the Warpath Bridge. Kettles gets very warm by the time it reaches that point. If you wanted to create a thermal refuge on Kettle, it would have to be above that point, closing some of the best water on Kettle Creek and some of the best water in the Commonwealth. this would anger a very large number of anglers.

 

[Mike]

Sasquatch,

See what I just wrote about the Tully regarding summer temps and RT survival....refuge or no refuge...probably does not matter. It is toward the end in the RT thread on RT survival.

 

[bigjohn58]

You rarely see dead fish on Kettle due to the large number of hellbenders. They clean them up fast!

 

[pcray1231]

His question makes sense to me, although I think it's been answered.

If they die, why not make it DH?

Answer: Because it's FFO. We don't have DHFFO regs in PA and nobody wants to make them. If it were DH, it'd have to be DHALO, and that would upset a lot of FF's.

If they survive, why is it stocked? (with the implication that it would then have wild fish)

Answer: In a good summer, some die, some survive. With C&R more survive. In a bad summer, nothing really survives, hence it's not capable of sustaining significant wild populations, and must be stocked.

Further, even if they die, the timing of such is highly dependent on the summer. i.e. our DH regs open it to harvest on June 15th. Water temps may not peak until August. This is a very popular stretch of water. A lot of fishing happens after June 15th before it gets too warm, which would be harmed by harvest.

With a more plugged in fishing population, the PFBC could do more individual managing of streams. For instance, have more reg categories, close thermal refuges, adjust the date of DH regs for each stream each year in response to local conditions, etc. They do this type of stuff out west with regularity.

But PA fishermen, by and large, aren't as aware about stuff like this. It's part of our truck chasing legacy. It's easier on the fishermen and those who enforce it to make a limited set of more easily understandable regs and hold to them. Even if it's not a perfect fit for each and every stream.

 

[outsider]

The Kettle Creek "Fish for Fun" area was a major attraction in it's heyday. It was heavily stocked by the PA Fish Commission and supplemented by a sportsman club that stocked big fish, circa 70's. It also had a small population of native brook trout.

But the dynamics of the stream changed. And my understanding is stream improvement devises were disallowed in recent years. And the supplemental stockings by a certain club stopped. And, rainbows are the stocked fish of choice by the Pa Fish Commission

Droughts in the 90's and beyond also took it's toll, not only with the fish, but the biota as well.

Conclusion: It is a shadow of what it was. I still fish it, but with less enthusiasm.