Invasive Pike in Alaska: A classic story of the Boom and Bust of an invasive fishery started by anglers with buckets that took everything else with it

[Mike]

Dear Mike,

I find great irony in concern for main stem Delaware's wild rainbow trout regardless of who expresses said concern. If it wasn't for a broken-down train well over a century ago, they would not exist.

As you well know, stripers are native to the Delaware system though. Something has to eat all those herring!

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

Tim, You’re right-on with the herring comment. I hope I didn’t make you think I was concerned in the least about stripers intermixing with the RT and BT. I’d trade a night of naturally occurring stripers 18-24” long up there for a night of trout anytime.

 

[silverfox]

I’d trade a night of naturally occurring stripers 18-24” long up there for a night of trout anytime.

Same here.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Silverfox was right that in PA we have a special penchant for repeatedly releasing and introducing invasive species. But it is certainly a global problem. Who here hs heard of a Himalayan snow trout?

 

[TimMurphy]

Tim, You’re right-on with the herring comment. I hope I didn’t make you think I was concerned in the least about stripers intermixing with the RT and BT. I’d trade a night of naturally occurring stripers 18-24” long up there for a night of trout anytime.

Dear Mike,

I understood you completely. No worries. I'd die right now to catch 18 to 24" stripers anywhere on the planet. Right now, it's all I can do to catch a credit-card sized bluegill!

I was just trying to keep the conversation going. 😉

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[Fish Sticks]

Dear Mike,

I understood you completely. No worries. I'd die right now to catch 18 to 24" stripers anywhere on the planet. Right now, it's all I can do to catch a credit-card sized bluegill!

I was just trying to keep the conversation going. 😉

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

Tim there are thousands of river miles of prime creek chub, fallfish, and common shiner water I just pulled this river monster out of chiques creek today.

It was a good thing I had a large arbor reel and pre set drag

 

[TimMurphy]

Tim there are thousands of river miles of prime creek chub, fallfish, and common shiner water I just pulled this river monster out of chiques creek today.

It was a good thing I had a large arbor reel and pre set dragView attachment 1641231489

Dear Fish Sticks,

At least you were rewarded with your efforts. I caught nothing today.

Were you fishing with a Sage 0 weight rod? I'd have launched that fish into the stratosphere with my Orvis 1 weight! 😉

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[Fish Sticks]

Dear Fish Sticks,

At least you were rewarded with your efforts. I caught nothing today.

Were you fishing with a Sage 0 weight rod? I'd have launched that fish into the stratosphere with my Orvis 1 weight! 😉

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

3 weight 10 footer, i need a 1 weight. Caught plenty of good looking creek chubs too.

 

[TimMurphy]

3 weight 10 footer, i need a 1 weight. Caught plenty of good looking creek chubs too.

Dear Fish Sticks,

You should have saved the chubs in a bucket to use for those invasive flatheads. The chubs were gonna get et anyway, just sayin'. 😉

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[Fish Sticks]

Dear Fish Sticks,

You should have saved the chubs in a bucket to use for those invasive flatheads. The chubs were gonna get et anyway, just sayin'. 😉

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

I’m going our chub’n again today in the high water with some articulated size 16 chub streamers in lancaster county

 

[Mike]

Lake trout werent' an issue on Flathead lake until they were

But they weren’t, not when you consider the complexity of the ecosystem. What upset the balance between lake trout, whitefish, and and zooplankton that had previously existed since 1905 was the early 1980’s appearance of mysid shrimp in the drainage basin and eventual entry into the lake. Lake trout got the advantage because of the mysids. Kokanee apparently crashed by 1990. It’s still a story of potential problems with introductions of new species, but in this case at a trophic level that most people probably don’t normally consider. However, it’s not a story of sudden delayed reactions with all other things being equal.

 

[brookieteeth]

The littering analogy was not meant to represent the difficulty of the task (which you knew, I hope) but how a massive educational campaign has failed. My God, I was taught it in school, grew up with Capt Planet, etc, etc..... It failed. People litter. They know they shouldn't but they do anyways. It's the same with spreading fish. They know they shouldn't, but do.

I realize that litter is an ongoing problem, and that the threat of backsliding is ever-present. I've noticed some indications of that backsliding; it doesn't help that there's been a massive increase in plastic packaging, particularly for beverages.

But the litter situation was incomparably worse and more widespread 50-60 years ago. Speaking as someone who used to clean it up back then, and who was also an outlier in my peer group for refusing to throw things on the ground or out my car window. To me, the littering situation is an example of how education and elevating social attitudes can make improvements that last. But culture is about teachings that get handed down, whether bad or good. And if the new generations aren't exposed to enough good examples, the bad examples show up in their place. Entropy requires no maintenance. Inertia is the default.

Holding the line against destructive invasives is an even tougher problem, because as few as one introduction of an unwanted plant or animal species can wreak havoc. Maine is a real test case in that regard, for both plants and fish. I've been paying attention to the situation in that state for decades. It's tough to witness the failures. But the good news is that taken in perspective, there have been few of them, compared to what it would be without education and monitoring. I'm fully on board with maintaining law enforcement and penalties, but there's no way the efforts against invasives could have been as effective as they have been thus far without a baseline consensus of boaters and anglers doing the right thing. Most outdoor folk really do care about these problems that they're willing to do the work necessary to keep more lakes and rivers from being afflicted by destructive invasive plants and animals. Education of the public and maintenance of best practices are worthwhile projects.

 

[troutbert]

The littering analogy was not meant to represent the difficulty of the task (which you knew, I hope) but how a massive educational campaign has failed. My God, I was taught it in school, grew up with Capt Planet, etc, etc..... It failed. People litter.

The campaign against littering has not failed. LIttering is much less common now than it was in the late 1960s and early 1970s. It hasn't gone to zero, and probably never will. But it is much less than in the past.

I realize that litter is an ongoing problem, and that the threat of backsliding is ever-present. I've noticed some indications of that backsliding; it doesn't help that there's been a massive increase in plastic packaging, particularly for beverages.

But the litter situation was incomparably worse and more widespread 50-60 years ago. Speaking as someone who used to clean it up back then, and who was also an outlier in my peer group for refusing to throw things on the ground or out my car window. To me, the littering situation is an example of how education and elevating social attitudes can make improvements that last. But culture is about teachings that get handed down, whether bad or good. And if the new generations aren't exposed to enough good examples, the bad examples show up in their place. Entropy requires no maintenance. Inertia is the default.

That's true. The litter situation is MUCH better than it was in the past.

 

[TimMurphy]

The campaign against littering has not failed. LIttering is much less common now than it was in the late 1960s and early 1970s. It hasn't gone to zero, and probably never will. But it is much less than in the past.

That's true. The litter situation is MUCH better than it was in the past.

Dear troutbert,

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on this. Yes, for those of us of a similar vintage who grew up watching the commercial of the tearful Indian in the canoe it's easy to say that littering has been reduced.

But there are several generations that came after us who never saw the commercial and seem to not understand the message. I can see trash virtually every day in my suburban Harrisburg yard that definitely wasn't put there by myself and/or my wife.

Travel to any commercial establishment such as a grocery store or strip mall and the amount of plastic waste and cigarette butts really hasn't changed all that much in 50 years. The fact that we have well over 50% more people may play a role. However, in the case of plastic, it's probably actually increased since the use of plastic in so prevalent. Not to mention the blob of plastic waste the size of Rhode Island that bobs unmolested in the Pacific Ocean.

When I was growing up, I never really had much to throw away. Nowadays it's much different, and the results are like a step back in time.

We all need to police our area like I was trained to do in the USAF a long time ago. That was easy for me because I was taught to do that early on.


Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[Fish Sticks]

But they weren’t, not when you consider the complexity of the ecosystem. What upset the balance between lake trout, whitefish, and kokanee that had previously existed since 1905 was the early 1980’s appearance of mysid shrimp in the drainage basin and eventual entry into the lake. Lake trout got the advantage because of the mysids. Kokanee apparently crashed by 1990. It’s still a story of potential problems with introductions of new species, but in this case at a trophic level that most people probably don’t normally consider. However, it’s not a story of sudden delayed reactions with all other things being equal.

But thats exactly it, they weren’t an issue until they were. The whole point in that example is if you say a non native species is not invasive a change in prey base, water temp, or habitat can make it invasive even highly invasive.

 

[silverfox]

But they weren’t, not when you consider the complexity of the ecosystem. What upset the balance between lake trout, whitefish, and and zooplankton that had previously existed since 1905 was the early 1980’s appearance of mysid shrimp in the drainage basin and eventual entry into the lake. Lake trout got the advantage because of the mysids. Kokanee apparently crashed by 1990. It’s still a story of potential problems with introductions of new species, but in this case at a trophic level that most people probably don’t normally consider. However, it’s not a story of sudden delayed reactions with all other things being equal.

Good point, but again, they weren't a problem until they were. Even though it was ultimately a change in forage that triggered the cascade, it's still a tale of an introduced species that seemed fairly benign until something else in the environment changed.

 

[Mike]

Good point, but again, they weren't a problem until they were. Even though it was ultimately a change in forage that triggered the cascade, it's still a tale of an introduced species that seemed fairly benign until something else in the environment changed.

In my view, your second sentence is how it should have been presented.

 

[Silent Ocelot]

Can anyone explain to me just how bad snakeheads are? And explain it to me like I'm 5. I remember hearing about how bad they were in the mid-2000s, and that I should kill one on site. I've only ever seen one taken by a gear angler on the Skook up in Hamburg, a river I used to invest a lot of time in but have since given up as it is a declining fishery minus the redbreasts that seem to be the only fish swimming in it. It just intrigues me that there was so much hate for this fish that seemed (at least to me) to not being a huge threat yet was treated like a T-virus break-out.

I've seen brown trout everywhere a trout can be minus [REDACTED] Run, but I've been told by PFBC that they are looking to eradicate the natives in there but are worried that their favored bait-slinging hicks won't be able to drag their 100qt YETI coolers back their so they can over-harvest more effectively.

I wonder what would happen if we opened up lethal tactics like bowfishng for brown trout, or if we viewed brown trout in the same light as snakeheads and had a kill-on-sight mentality for them. I feel like trout as a whole are typically never blamed because they are the staple fish to catch and are adored by many anglers and statistically many anglers target them over any other species. Do you think many anglers would follow a kill-on-sight policy for brown trout? I know it is done out west with certain creeks/rivers where the effects of brown trout have been noted AND acted upon.

From what I've learned in my meager 32 years of existence is that perception and group mentality far out-weight truth and facts.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Can anyone explain to me just how bad snakeheads are? And explain it to me like I'm 5. I remember hearing about how bad they were in the mid-2000s, and that I should kill one on site. I've only ever seen one taken by a gear angler on the Skook up in Hamburg, a river I used to invest a lot of time in but have since given up as it is a declining fishery minus the redbreasts that seem to be the only fish swimming in it. It just intrigues me that there was so much hate for this fish that seemed (at least to me) to not being a huge threat yet was treated like a T-virus break-out.

I've seen brown trout everywhere a trout can be minus [REDACTED] Run, but I've been told by PFBC that they are looking to eradicate the natives in there but are worried that their favored bait-slinging hicks won't be able to drag their 100qt YETI coolers back their so they can over-harvest more effectively.

I wonder what would happen if we opened up lethal tactics like bowfishng for brown trout, or if we viewed brown trout in the same light as snakeheads and had a kill-on-sight mentality for them. I feel like trout as a whole are typically never blamed because they are the staple fish to catch and are adored by many anglers and statistically many anglers target them over any other species. Do you think many anglers would follow a kill-on-sight policy for brown trout? I know it is done out west with certain creeks/rivers where the effects of brown trout have been noted AND acted upon.

From what I've learned in my meager 32 years of existence is that perception and group mentality far out-weight truth and facts.

Yea I mean it’s really just about how many friends a fish has not really was it does to other fish per say when it comes to how invasive species are treated. I realize people have strong feelings for brown trout so I try to compromise and say ok brown trout are managed for preferentially almost in every stream in the state because given what we know about how they effect brook trout, protecting all trout with the same regulations is essentially saying “we are ok with whats going to happen when both species are present”(brook trout displacement in majority of cases). I generally try emphasize that brook trout have absolutely ZERO right now interms of regs management or any effort to preserve just them. I’m essentially sporting about 100% non consensual compromise right now because of how things are in PA. When people doing brook trout conservation ask for the crumbs even one stream where we get things outta there it still becomes world war 3 ironically

 

[jifigz]

Can anyone explain to me just how bad snakeheads are? And explain it to me like I'm 5. I remember hearing about how bad they were in the mid-2000s, and that I should kill one on site. I've only ever seen one taken by a gear angler on the Skook up in Hamburg, a river I used to invest a lot of time in but have since given up as it is a declining fishery minus the redbreasts that seem to be the only fish swimming in it. It just intrigues me that there was so much hate for this fish that seemed (at least to me) to not being a huge threat yet was treated like a T-virus break-out.

I've seen brown trout everywhere a trout can be minus [REDACTED] Run, but I've been told by PFBC that they are looking to eradicate the natives in there but are worried that their favored bait-slinging hicks won't be able to drag their 100qt YETI coolers back their so they can over-harvest more effectively.

I wonder what would happen if we opened up lethal tactics like bowfishng for brown trout, or if we viewed brown trout in the same light as snakeheads and had a kill-on-sight mentality for them. I feel like trout as a whole are typically never blamed because they are the staple fish to catch and are adored by many anglers and statistically many anglers target them over any other species. Do you think many anglers would follow a kill-on-sight policy for brown trout? I know it is done out west with certain creeks/rivers where the effects of brown trout have been noted AND acted upon.

From what I've learned in my meager 32 years of existence is that perception and group mentality far out-weight truth and facts.

I will try to give you the most level-headed answers I can to all of your questions....

1) How bad are snakeheads? Likely right now no one really knows, although the Potomac has had them now for over 20 years. However, given the data so far, it appears that they are not as damaging to the ecosystems they have settled into as they were feared to be. And by damaging, I am talking about the other fish people desire catching there. Who knows that impacts they are having on lesser monitored baitfish species and such.

There is a lot of stuff out there about snakeheads for you to research, read up on, and formulate your own opinion. Overall though, the verdict is still out and only the future can tell.

2) Bow-fishing for brown trout is a pretty dumb idea and wouldn't gain traction easily at all. The reason why? Brown Trout are much harder to wait on and spy than most all fish. Trout are stealthy, they hang out in riffles where you can't see them, etc. Certain streams this could be possible, but most streams no way. You aren't going to see the trout often enough or good enough 99% of the time for it to become a pastime. People want to shoot stuff, and they wouldn't get to shoot enough trout to keep the entertainment high. Plus, the public's view of trout would probably keep some from doing it.

3) A mandatory catch and kill on some streams for brownies would be a good idea and some folks would participate, some wouldn't. Small streams that are mixed populations would definitely be a viable management option to help give brookies the edge and I would support the regulation on certain waters. On other streams that are large and fully dominated by browns, then no way, I think it is a bad idea.

As an aside, people like catching snakeheads. This means that at least one person will disregard all advice and continue moving them around. Slowly but surely, I can almost guarantee their range spreads and it will be due to angler introductions.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I will try to give you the most level-headed answers I can to all of your questions....

1) How bad are snakeheads? Likely right now no one really knows, although the Potomac has had them now for over 20 years. However, given the data so far, it appears that they are not as damaging to the ecosystems they have settled into as they were feared to be. And by damaging, I am talking about the other fish people desire catching there. Who knows that impacts they are having on lesser monitored baitfish species and such.

There is a lot of stuff out there about snakeheads for you to research, read up on, and formulate your own opinion. Overall though, the verdict is still out and only the future can tell.

2) Bow-fishing for brown trout is a pretty dumb idea and wouldn't gain traction easily at all. The reason why? Brown Trout are much harder to wait on and spy than most all fish. Trout are stealthy, they hang out in riffles where you can't see them, etc. Certain streams this could be possible, but most streams no way. You aren't going to see the trout often enough or good enough 99% of the time for it to become a pastime. People want to shoot stuff, and they wouldn't get to shoot enough trout to keep the entertainment high. Plus, the public's view of trout would probably keep some from doing it.

3) A mandatory catch and kill on some streams for brownies would be a good idea and some folks would participate, some wouldn't. Small streams that are mixed populations would definitely be a viable management option to help give brookies the edge and I would support the regulation on certain waters. On other streams that are large and fully dominated by browns, then no way, I think it is a bad idea.

As an aside, people like catching snakeheads. This means that at least one person will disregard all advice and continue moving them around. Slowly but surely, I can almost guarantee their range spreads and it will be due to angler introductions.

I think thats pretty reasonable, I have always said no one from NFC is advocating to rotenone or kill the browns in the Big 5 limes-toners. That handful of streams you mentioned would be huge win as brookies currently have nothing.

Dr. Love is the one who did the black water study showing snakeheads had a large negative effect. John Odenkirk made claims that this was trend already happening but Dr. Loves statement to me was that Odenkirk is not local to the fishery and Love himself pulled up the nets, is boots on ground and knows fishery, saw the drop in white perch and strongly refutes the data was indicative of a clear downward trend before snakeheads but mentioned when fisheries scientists look at data its not uncommon for them to draw different conclusions.