Importance of wings on dry flies?

[MKern]

I went through it in my head and the difference seems to be about a 1/2 shank length difference.
I'll try and explain:
Wing 1st:
.5 to wing, .5 to tail, .25 to cover tail, and .25 back to bend = 1.5
Tail 1st:
1 to bend, .5 up to wing (covering tails), .5 back to bend = 2
Just trying to figure it out. But my way seems to be more complicated, but I think it's 1 of the bad fly fishing habits that I'm not going to try and break. There are others I have to fix first.

 

[plumbob]

Its no big deal but it helps to keep the wraps at the bend to a bare min. When you do a quill body that one extra wrap of thread can give you a little trouble in starting your body.

 

[jayL]

I don't tie wings on anything below 16. If I do, they are bright orange.

Guess I should look in to using them more often. Either way, most of my dries are cdc or parachute anyway.

 

[tabasco_joe]

sandfly wrote:
Wings should be tird in first, then the tail, body and hackle..when doing the wings first you can adjust them easier to fit...I also use a gauge for the wing sizes, so does plumbob and he wins alot of compitions...its a tool for porportioning your fies..

Sandfly; That makes sense to me and that's how I've been starting, wings first. I have the Amato proportion chart and I just finished tying about 200 nymphs for next year. By the end I was getting my proportions down well which is helping with my initial dries.

Plumbob; I should be doing some tying with Lou this week so I'll see if he can give me some help. Althought the last time he taught me it was his sculpin pattern that has so much lead I was thinking of using one of my baitcasting rods.

What I was trying so far is wood duck wings. I think my proportions are ok I just have trouble centering the wings and splitting at the right angles. I am becoming a master of cripples.

Since I fish Penns a lot I have taken hatch charts for Penns and am going to work on the mayflies. Starting with a light Hendrickson in a 14. Figured starting with a middle size fly would be a good idea. (Penns runs from large green drakes to small BWO.)

Thanks for all the inputs. Once I get this solved I'll be posting a number of other dry fly questions on bodies (especially quills) and also pattern colors.

 

[sandfly]

I feel sorry for you tying with Lou...lol...plumbo should go for a lesson with lou too...lol...

 

[sandfly]

Once you get below a sz. 16 it doesnt matter as much but i like to still use something..a post seems to work fine..

there was a study done on a fishes veiw of the surface and the wing tips showed first, most fish keyed in on that..I think it was done on the upper delaware..

 

[tabasco_joe]

One of the patterns I want to tie up is BWO in 18 - 20. Would you go with something like a medium dun or grey poly post?

 

[JackM]

sandfly wrote:
Once you get below a sz. 16 it doesnt matter as much but i like to still use something..a post seems to work fine..

there was a study done on a fishes veiw of the surface and the wing tips showed first, most fish keyed in on that..I think it was done on the upper delaware..

I don't think this is quite true. My understanding is that trout will see a mirror of the underwater as the fly or natural approaches. The first thing they see is a break of the meniscus by the hackle and tail on catskill flies or the body/hook on comparaduns or emergers. The first appearance of the wings would occur when the fly enters a window of a fairly small diameter as the trout approaches the surface. From more than a foot or two down, the trout never sees anything other than the mirror. It is true that when a trout begins to see anything of the top of the fly (that is, the parts of the fly above the surface), it will see the top-most part first, so at that point, if the trout has not already committed to the take (sterile-water brookies, other aggressive-feeding trout, or any trout in fast water), it may notice the absence of the wing shape and choose to pass on your offering.

So, if this is so, what does it mean? It means that while wings are often not essential, there will be occasions where having them will thwart a refusal from a finicky trout. If you cannot master wings to your satisfaction, buy some of each pattern with wings, then tie your own wingless. Use your own ties and if you are certain you are throwing the right stage, size and color and are still getting refusals, then tie on the purchased fly.

This is my story and I'm sticking with it. keep in mind, however, that I have no earthly idea what I am talking about.

 

[plumbob]

This article may help some.
http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/fliesonly/index.html

 

[sandfly]

If trout see a mirror then how can they see us??? its a mirror around their window which at a 2 foot depth is like 3 ft. round..take a snorkel and goggles and lay under water on your back...been there, its amazing what you see and don't..


Jack, the mirror effect only works with flat water as in a pond..

 

[tabasco_joe]

sandfly wrote:
If trout see a mirror then how can they see us??? its a mirror around their window which at a 2 foot depth is like 3 ft. round..take a snorkel and goggles and lay under water on your back...been there, its amazing what you see and don't..


Jack, the mirror effect only works with flat water as in a pond..

I think Jacks point is that there is a depression in the surface film from the weight of the fly which, arguably would be seen before the wing would be seen entering the window. I have a book with closeup underwater pictures which show this.

Another factor to consider is the chromatic distortion that occurs across the "window" described in Sandfly's figure.

As Sandfly notes this is in flat water. Throw in turbulance it's a wonder that trout find food on the surface.

 

[JackM]

How can we rely on Sandfly's pictures when they are in black & white? The fish see us or objects above the water, as a relative light and dark background that establishes the "mirror" which is depicted pretty well in the photos in the links supplied above by another poster. As I said, I am sticking with my story.

OK, I can't stick with my story any longer. I was wrongly remembering-- the window of above-water vision is larger when the trout are lower in the water column, but, importantly, there is a blind-spot that prevent them from seeing items on the surface (or above), even within the "surface area" of the window if those items are within a certain degree (10degs?) of the surface, hence the often seen image of the stealthy fly angler crouching or half-kneeling on the river bank. I'm gonna stick with this one now.

 

[tomgamber]

This better Jack?

 

[Fredrick]

I catch more fish with parachutes and camparaduns than I do with the catskill type drys . And thier alot faster to tie must of the time I out fish the people who use the catskill type dries so I don't think the fish care about the wings its more for the fisherman than the fish IMHO :-D

 

[tabasco_joe]

I have a book which argues that the shape of the depresion in the surface film is highly important to fish stikes and that the traditional drys don't match a true mayfly. It promotes a variant on a parachute pattern. I'm traveling and can't remember the title but when I get home I'll post it.

 

[JackM]

tomgamber wrote:
This better Jack?

I guess it's better, but a pack of crayolas is no substitute for science updated to at least the 18th Century. That illustration looks like it came out of the Compleat Angler.

 

[tomgamber]

I knew I should have waited for my kid to get home..can't slip anything by you, eh Jack?

 

[Padraic]

tabasco_joe wrote:
I have a book which argues that the shape of the depresion in the surface film is highly important to fish stikes and that the traditional drys don't match a true mayfly. It promotes a variant on a parachute pattern. I'm traveling and can't remember the title but when I get home I'll post it.

I believe that book would be In the Ring of the Rise. Anyone got a copy handy?

 

[tabasco_joe]

Padraic wrote:

tabasco_joe wrote:
I have a book which argues that the shape of the depresion in the surface film is highly important to fish stikes and that the traditional drys don't match a true mayfly. It promotes a variant on a parachute pattern. I'm traveling and can't remember the title but when I get home I'll post it.

I believe that book would be In the Ring of the Rise. Anyone got a copy handy?

Actually not Ring of the Rise. It's "Dry Flies: An Improved Method of Tying" by L.T. Threadgold. I only had a chance to skim it. maybe over Christmas I'll have the time to dive into it.

I also have Ring of the Rise but haven't gotten a chance to digest that one either.

 

[JackM]

An article by Castwell

A book by Threadgold

From now on, I want to be known as Jack M. Slapwater.