Huge Fly Fisherman: Trash Fish???- Video

[silverfox]

Something similar happened to me, only it wasn.t a dink. Sure, channel cats fight well, but world record smallmouth is just shy 12 lbs.

I used to live in a lake community with a large shallow lake, perfect for bass. One day I was fishing a secluded part for largemouth bass using an antique Shakespear bamboo rod and automatic real. Was using modern line, so there was no room for backing. Oh well, no need for backing on a bass rod, right. The rod was a heavy 9 foot bass taper, or if you prefer, about an 8 wt with moderate taper. Cicada were everywhere that year, so for the fly, I was using an antique molded cicada pattern that I found in an old tackle box that I purchased at an auction. One more thing. I was using tapered leader, tapered down to 4X. In hind sight, it was a little light.

I was wading quite a ways from shore and casting under overhanging willows when something came up and sort of sucked the fly down. I set the hook and it was off to the races. At first, I thought it had to be at least a 5 lb bass. I had caught a fee of those before. As time went on, it kept growing in my mind. Muddy lake, and it hadn't showed itself. Because of no backing, I had to start following it. After what seemed like 10 minutes, I was thinking possible state (OH) record largemouth. Then I got a glimpse of it. Making a long story short less long, I eventually landed the fish 100 feet from shore on the side of an old stump. What can I say, I really wanted that fly back. The fish likely was some kind of record, but didn't care and think they kept records for grass carp. But apparently they do. IGFA all tackle fly record is 82 cm (about 32.25") I measured mine against the fly rod. Butt section measures 37 inches and this fish was about 5 inches longer than the butt section. It was so big that I tried to tail it and the tail was too fat to get a grip on it. Anyway, I had no camera with me, and looked around to see if any other anglers were around. No dice, so I simply let it go.

I can relate. I like targeting carp in the summer. Here's the biggest I've been able to land. We have some behemoths in the Raystown Branch of the Juniata. This was a touch over 36", and I can't even guess at the weight, but it was a tank. That's an 8wt rod next to it. It chased down my fly from about 3 feet away, and I was into the backing a few times as it ran up and down the river.

 

[jifigz]

I think the point is that stunting isn't specific to one species. Stunting is a real thing, and brown trout aren't immune to it. It tends to be prevalent in introduced species and the boom/bust that tends to occur when you introduce a species somewhere where it wasn't present for hundreds of thousands of years, which is what FS was getting at (I believe).

I didn't pick up on that being the point of anyone' post since no one ever implied or outright stated that it was specific to a single species. I just read one example of that being the case for brook trout in Idaho. Yes, I agree that fish in a system, either top predators or fish that are unable to be preyed upon, over-populate and become stunted in a system, but we also have lots of native fish that are stunted in their native waters and lots of invasive fish that grow to be huge giants in their introduced range.

Bass aren't native to the majority of California, right? Boy some of their lakes sure do produce some gigantic invasive fish and they've been there for over a hundred years.....

 

[silverfox]

I didn't pick up on that being the point of anyone' post since no one ever implied or outright stated that it was specific to a single species. I just read one example of that being the case for brook trout in Idaho. Yes, I agree that fish in a system, either top predators or fish that are unable to be preyed upon, over-populate and become stunted in a system, but we also have lots of native fish that are stunted in their native waters and lots of invasive fish that grow to be huge giants in their introduced range.

Bass aren't native to the majority of California, right? Boy some of their lakes sure do produce some gigantic invasive fish and they've been there for over a hundred years.....

Post #4 in response to post #3.

 

[krayfish2]

The Delaware system has some truly giant fall fish and suckers. While wade fishing a riff, landed a sucker that had to be pushing 5.5 - 6 pounds. Netted the fish and held it up for the guide boat that was passing. They cheered and yelled 'sweet brown dude'. 🤣🤣. I wasn't going to tell them differently.

They will give a good fight when temps are 58-68°

 

[jifigz]

Post #4 in response to post #3.

Sorry, still didn't get that one. I thought we all knew brookies were small here because they are forced to live in the most infertile and least productive brooks and headwaters because they've been driven out of all of the more fertile, food-rich streams and environments by the changing of nature by humans and the force of the invasive brown trout. (And with that I 100% agree.)

I thought Krayfish was just being Krayfish. You know, being the oppositional basher of all things and playing devil's advocate. After all, he has shared before that if our trout fishing was limited to small brookies in mountain headwaters he wouldn't even bother with it.

Suckers fight better than nearly any trout I have ever caught.

 

[silverfox]

Sorry, still didn't get that one. I thought we all knew brookies were small here because they are forced to live in the most infertile and least productive brooks and headwaters because they've been driven out of all of the more fertile, food-rich streams and environments by the changing of nature by humans and the force of the invasive brown trout. (And with that I 100% agree.)

I thought Krayfish was just being Krayfish. You know, being the oppositional basher of all things and playing devil's advocate. After all, he has shared before that if our trout fishing was limited to small brookies in mountain headwaters he wouldn't even bother with it.

Suckers fight better than nearly any trout I have ever caught.

I interpreted #4 to imply that brook trout overpopulate which stunts their populations as if it's some phenomenon unique to the species. You're probably right though. Just gotta bash brook trout to troll. Or whatever.

 

[Schaefer406]

I had the same thing happen on Spring creek. I thought I had a granddaddy brown trout on for a while. It turned out to be a 17 or 18 inch sucker, but it was thick. I always thought it was funny how people wax poetic about the fighting ability of certain sportfish when smaller versions of "trash fish" tend to fight better.

When I’m on spring I always see some really good sized suckers swimming around. Super fun to catch! A 20” brown would be cool though, but that is a rarity on Spring as mentioned due to lack of cover. I feel like a lot of the larger fish on spring tend to congregate on the lower end towards milesburg due to the ability to move in/out of bald Eagle and relative “less pressure” than the middle/upper reaches of spring

 

[Roofin' Trouter]

One man's trash fish is anothers treasure.

 

[Fish Sticks]

And to expand upon the stunting on spring creek thing. Any change to that brown trout population has to be in the 5 component framework of factors fisheries scientists use to categorize factors that govern stream dwelling trout populations.

Hydrology
Water quality
Geomorphology/habitat
Connectivity
And (Most frequently ignored) Biotic interactions with other species.

every variable governing those browns in spring creek w fits under one of those.

Water quality-its one of the coolest streams in the state for its size in summer in many sections and focal thermal Refugia is very abundant. Its silty, so is big spring and many other spring creeks. Regardless its has the highest density of fish per mile statewide I think? Don’t think thats limiting the size of brown trout.

Hydrology-has very steady base flows from ground water and can be flashy but blows out nothing like penns. Don’t think limiting the size of brown trout

Connectivity- theres the dam but i doubt thats what is limiting the size of brown trout.

Geomorphology/habitat- while there is data in a notable paper from the driftless region by john hoxmeire and doug deiterman showing pool depth can correlate with brown trout size, this assumes the fish has the food source to attain caloric intake to utilize that habitat to grow.

Biotic interactions

Interactions with humans- spring creek is essentially a watershed level model management zone/model that the EBTJV, solid research, and federal science agencies are suggesting Pennsylvania use for its native brook trout. We just choose to apply it to an invasive species instead(wild non native brown trout). In a stream/watershed with some of the highest density of wild brown trout per mile in the state if jot the highest, there is very little to no predation by humans. You have seen the stats that a brown trout caught has the opportunity to get caught what ever, 7-8 times a year in spring creek. And this also comes with protections from stocking on the entire watershed almost(another component of what EBTJV recommending for brook trout that only invasive trout get at watershed level in the state of PA). These protections from human predation and stocked fish unlikely to survive or reproduce as often obviously increase numbers of brown trout to some degree

-interactions with brook trout: once plentiful in spring creek brook trout were lost due to brown trout and hatchery construction according to PA fish and boats own internal documentation and a PDF with the history pf spring put out by the fish comission. There were disturbances in the watershed deforestation, Ag, development that may have harmed their populations but obviously with springs base flow and as referenced in above mentioned PFBC documents would not explain total pan seasonal disappearance from the main-stem. Native brook trout were very likely an important fat rich food source for invasive brown trout early in their invasion when they were still plentiful in the mainstream but they burned through them obviously its what invasive species do, brook trout are no longer a significant portion of the menu. So you lost a keystone species block from the spring creek ecosystem/species community/ JENGA tower. To maintain the same large size of brown trout of speing creek past you read about in harvey, humpreys, and hear about from long time guides when brook trout left the next category of biotic interactions would have had to shoulder the caloric values native brook trout once provided.

Macro-invertebrates, crustaceans, non salmonid forage fish members of aquatic life ecosystem: these are the blocks left in the native species ecosystem/Jenga tower after a keystone species like brook trout has been removed. They now get a larger share in the predation by invasive brown trout in the densest brown trout per mile in the state stream we have. There is less food to go around.


By examining these factors and taking into consideration that a slot limit is being proposed in spring creek and not a massive habitat overhaul, it seems pretty clear the massive proliferation of this invader to record densities in the state of Pennsylvania is likely due to an introduced species managed for intentionally by humans that has dominated the percentage biomass of spring creek similar to blue cats in the james river is limiting itself like invasive species so often due without the balance that co-evolution provides. Essentially the same watershed scale management style for brook trout in the savage special brook management area has likely resulted in larger brook trout and numerous ones because coevolved species are much less likely to have these boom and bust sustainable interaction issues.

As for your comment about kish, penns, bald eagle. Its hard to ignore that stocking which comes with human predation(lack of protection and I am assuming decent consumptive angler effort) and also hurts recruitment of trout is a factor spring does not seem to have in any significant amount. They do have larger habitat yes but is not uncommon for food rich smaller spring creeks to have very large trout all around the world and while I don’t have anything quantifiable many people have told me there used to be-more larger trout in spring creek. So if that is in fact true looking at just habitat as the smoking gun and eliminating the very common scenario of invasice species stunting out due to lack of sustainable interactions with prey base to maintain large individual size would be a mistake. Effects of slot limit will probably prove my point to a large degree if they implement it.

 

[John57]

There have been more than a couple of days on the water when the "trash fish" have saved me from getting completely skunked. As a matter of fact there are times during the summer when the program is targeting these guys. Some days are gonna be that way and you might as well have some fun while you're out there.

 

[Tigereye]

A fish that hasnt been mentioned besides brown trout LOL is the shad. Not an invasive species but i target them in the Deleware when flows are right. They are a blast on a 5 wt.

Ditto carp. Though i think a 7 would be better if you tangle with some of the behemoths in the Susquehanna.

 

[Fish Sticks]

A fish that hasnt been mentioned besides brown trout LOL is the shad. Not an invasive species but i target them in the Deleware when flows are right. They are a blast on a 5 wt.

Ditto carp. Though i think a 7 would be better if you tangle with some of the behemoths in the Susquehanna.

I always wonder if the susky shad fishery would be better than the delawares and what would run up with them(besides snakeheads/blue catfish) of the multiple dams that likely serve as the dominant limiting factor to the species were not present. Would stripers visit harrisburg with them? What size would the other game fish in the Susquehanna watershed attain when the juvenile shad migrated back to the ocean. Would it bolster biodiversity/species richness/ecosystem stability by adding a block back into the JENGA tower/ecosystem? Would love to see them return one day but christ if those Blues make it up here or if introduction rate of snakeheads increases there is no telling what will happen to the susky ecosystem.

 

[John57]

A fish that hasnt been mentioned besides brown trout LOL is the shad. Not an invasive species but i target them in the Deleware when flows are right. They are a blast on a 5 wt.

Ditto carp. Though i think a 7 would be better if you tangle with some of the behemoths in the Susquehanna.

We used to go down to the Rappahannock for them years ago. Stripping a dart through a bunch of them always seemed to induce some hard hitting action. Don't know why we stopped going. Maybe its time to revisit the area.....

 

[FarmerDave]

The Delaware system has some truly giant fall fish and suckers. While wade fishing a riff, landed a sucker that had to be pushing 5.5 - 6 pounds. Netted the fish and held it up for the guide boat that was passing. They cheered and yelled 'sweet brown dude'. 🤣🤣. I wasn't going to tell them differently.

They will give a good fight when temps are 58-68°

LOL!

That reminded me of a time when I was fishing with my little brother up at Kinzua. We were fishing the shoreline over by the hatchery. over by the hatchery. Brother was at least 200 yards away. Neither one of us had caught any trout and we were getting bored. I spotted a feeding carp which graciously took a nymph. FISH ON! I tried to pass it off as a brown trout, but he wasn't buying that day, even at that distance.

 

[FarmerDave]

I don't care what anyone says, carp are more fun to catch on a fly rod than brown trout. There, I said it.

 

[JeffK]

One buddy of mine was a carp specialist and he spent a great deal of time scouting fish over 20 lbs and patterning them before fishing. One year he got in place where a 25 carp was moving toward, dropped his bait and a 3 lbs brown took it (I guess jacked per the video) He was so angry and yanked the fish into the boat and chucked it back. Some observers were shocked at the treatment of a big brown, but it was a trash fish to him.

 

[hooker-of-men]

A fish that hasnt been mentioned besides brown trout LOL is the shad. Not an invasive species but i target them in the Deleware when flows are right. They are a blast on a 5 wt.

I've probably mentioned this here before, but the only shad I've managed to catch on the Delaware with a fly rod turned out to be a hefty fallfish. Twas bittersweet.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I am making it a point this summer to pursue some real tank of a fall fish at night with wets and Harvey pushers. I’ve had some luck in the swatty and have really put some time into learning a few new spots to add to the usual night fishing stops on that stream. Also hoping for a channel on the fly at night in those very same spots.

 

[krayfish2]

Why can't the state shock spring, remove 25% and place them in a stream system that could use them or into a recovering stream?

Instead of stocking 10,000 pellet hogs in the breeches, drop in 3k pelletheads and 7k spring creek browns.

 

[HopBack]

A really fun video that had nothing to do with brook trout…. And yet here we are talking about brook trout again!!