How important is the reel?

M

mgh-pa

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
112
I'm getting conflicting information on this subject. As many of you know, I'm new to this sport, and I'm still researching for my first outfit. I started out thinking I could get by with a $120 setup, but now I'm thinking there might be some merit to getting a nicer setup (particularly the LST from Cabelas).

I remember reading many of the suggestions on here concerning reels, and most stated that for trout fishing, the reel is more or less along for the ride, so it's not as imperative to get a big expensive reel for a beginner outfit.

Well, I talked to a fishing resource friend of mine, and he suggested, although not to go crazy and go buy a $500 setup or anything, but try to splurge for the SLA reel over the presitge plus reel that comes with the standard LST package. It adds a bit to the overall price, but he suggested it would be worth it.

So, thoughts? Get the better SLA reel, or stick with a basic reel to go with the LST rod?
 
depends on the size fish you're gonna be catching. For most trout, no the reel isn't important. If you're gonna be catching big fish where you need a reliable drag, then yes the reel is important.

Most of the fish i catch are 15 inch or less. For these fish i rarely even have the fish "on the reel" and when i do, i don't rely on the drag. The reel just holds the line.

If i was regularly catching 20" trout in big water, or if I was fishing for smallies or something than I'd spend more on my reel.
 
The presitge plus is way beyond adequate for almost any PA fishing application.

The SLA looks nice, has a large arbor, and probably a nicer drag. None of those things are needed for fishing our waters, especially for the smaller weights (3 to 6 or 7).
 
not sure what the alternative to the SLA is but just make sure its not the plastic composite reel. make sure its metal.
 
Well, it depends on what kind of fish you expect to catch. If you're expecting to be fishing for big fish, i.e. anywhere where an 18-20 inch fish is more than a once in a blue moon fish, then I'd consider getting a better than average drag. But for most PA stream fishing, I'd splurge on the rod moreso than the reel. Thats not to say an expensive rod is necessarily better than a cheap one, just that if it were, I'd consider laying down the money on that and going cheaper on the reel.

A reel with plastic components will go bad before an all metal one. A large arbor makes things nice as you can reel in quicker. All that said, in most situations you'll catch as many fish with a Walmart special as you will using a bank breaker. The most important thing is that it balances the rod. Put the reel on the rod, loaded with line, string the line through so that enough fly line comes out of the end of the rod to reach the ground. Find the balance point. Make sure its on the handle, near where your hand will be, if its not, go lighter or heavier as needed. Most reputable shops will let you do this, and if they don't, then don't shop there, they're not worth your money anyway.

Case in point, one of the biggest problems with bamboo rods today is that people use light reels meant for graphite rods, and the balance point ends up somewhere out on the blank instead of on the cork. Likewise, that Walmart special is likely to be too heavy for an extremely light graphite rod. Balance is more important than anything else, and if a $30 reel balances your chosen rod, then I think its probably just fine.
 
A good reel will last a lifetime.However you will need different reels to balance different rods and for different situations so expect to spend LOTS of money if you are going to get serious.Target your purchases and do it right the first time-lol
I hear them saying quality equipment won't catch more fish-true but the pleasure of using equipment that comes alive and feels like part of you is worth the price IMHO.
 
The most important aspect to consider when getting a reel is to get one that balances the rod. A reel can be too heavy or too light and an out-of-balance rod will not feel right.

Next is reel/spool size. Personally I'd go with a mid-arbor reel. Mid-arbor reels won't cause your line to coil as tightly around the spool and the tighter the coil the more memory the line has, so by minimizing coils you'll be able to cast better and you line will lay better on the water.

Reels with drag seem to be a matter of preference. Some experts swear you need to play a big fish off the drag/reel while other experts swear by click and pawl reels and regulating drag with the palm of your hand. Personally I think it is a matter of preference and the only place a drag reel makes 100% sense is if fishing a large river like the Delaware where a 20" wild rainbow can easily run 150 feet.

As for backing, for 95% of the PA trout streams backing is simply there to increase the reel spool's diameter so the coils of line are bigger. If most streams if you let a fish take you anywhere near your backing that fish is around 2 bends and is well onto his way of snapping your tippet. Only the biggest fish on big waters should take you into backing.
 
Did any of you try casting without a reel attached?

Try it next time you practice casting. Strip off enough line, remove the reel and set it on the ground, and then cast.

Determine what you need from that.

Personally, I try to find the lightest weight reel, and do not seek the "balanced rod/reel" fulcrum thing.

For me, seeking the mass balance belongs in the realm of spincasting and baitcasting, where it can be important, but really it's not. The reel is not designed to act as a stabilizing/counter weight.

The term, "balanced" has been misinterpretted many times over the years, and was originally meant to mean balanced = rod and reel designed for certain diameter (strengths line) all designed for certain size lures to maximize casting and handling.
The weight of a reel is important, but achieving a specific fulcrum balancing is too simplistic.

A balanced fly outfit is one in which a reel designed for specific line diameters (expressed in weights) matches with the rod designed to handle lines of certain diameters (expressed in weights). While the weight of the line is most important to the selection of rod, the diameter of the line is most important to the reel, since it can only hold so much of a certain diameter.

Look for elements in the reel construction that meet your needs. Do they appear as though they will break if dropped? Difficult to clean? Is the reel seat of the needed dimensions and taper? Is it welded or attached with screws?
 
Try hi-sticking a rod for a couple of hours while nymph fishing,with out a reel-or a too lite one.You can do it-heck,Lee Wulff proved you could fly fish with out the rod,either.Balanced tackle is more pleasant to use ,not a necessity.
 
Actually I have.

Merely holding the empy hand in that position will fatigue the shoulder and arm muscles - any additional weight of any sort will decrease the amount of time it can be held comfortably.

I also understand that if the rod is held high and the line extends to the water surface, and needs to be mended appropriately, there is torque beyond the hand, and that can put demands on muscles that aren't ordinarily used for just elevating. Fatigue in those little used muscles can cause shorter periods of being able to hold that position.
Using the reel as a counter weight to that torque may be a consideration, but it won't help lengthen to time or fun in holding the rod up in that position. An extra long wading stick with a cross arm for resting might help.

And, yes, I understand the "feel" of carrying a setup that happens to - deliberately or not - put a "weight balance" at hand.
It doesn't do anything positive for casting or line handling. It does make it easier to carry horizontal.

The "weight balance" emphasis also begs the question about the number of reels required: What do you do if you have a 6.5-foot 5 wt rod; a 7'6" 5 wt; and a 9' 5 wt. - do you buy three different weight reels specific to each rod designed of a 4-6 wt capacity?

And yes, casting is somewhat two-part: line handling and using the rod spring engergy. Using rod spring energy alone will not alow for casts of any distance. Proper line handling allows all range of casts, and at all distances. At great distances and short the rod is used less to propel the line and more to finesse the shape and placement of the cast.

Many casters never get beyond using the spring of the rod. But if you do learn how to cast without a rod, the options to use of rod will increase.

If you really want to tear up some muscle in your shoulder and neck - fish three big wets with a heavy line on a bamboo with a heavy reel while mending frequently and holding the rod in a semi-high stick position.
 
I respectfully disagree with Vern.....

I suppose using the proper line weight for the rod is overkill too. I mean you could always compensate.

Or as you said, you could always just skip the rod and cast with your arm.

Get a reel that balances the rod on your finger at the front half of the cork with a properly matched line weight (to the rod). Be sure there is line out through the end of the rod and to the ground.

This is the "Zero" Balance point or Calibrated balance. While as Vern said, you could cast a broom stick with an orange extention cord on the end of it. It is probably better to at least try to get somewhere near zero before making compromises.


Just my opinion...no offense Vern.
 
Not to gang up on you Vern, but rather than relying on the rote system of choosing a reel based on the manufacturers rating, I choose to select a reel that balances the rod as Mo described. I have no problem finding one, and have a minimal amount of reels (my wife would disagree) to balance out all my rods. I cannot tell any difference in casting efficiency with a balanced or tip heavy rod, but 90% of the time I am holding my rod when fishing. Trying to fish with an unbalanced rod is a real chore, unless you have forearms like Popeye. Just saying………..
 

Attachments

  • Popeye fishing.jpg
    Popeye fishing.jpg
    4.4 KB · Views: 6
vern wrote:

Merely holding the empy hand in that position will fatigue the shoulder and arm muscles - any additional weight of any sort will decrease the amount of time it can be held comfortably.

I wholeheartedly, but respectfully, disagree. I have several rods, my heaviest is an 8' bamboo. It was a pain to cast at first, using my light weight reels meant for graphite rods. I got an old style, heavy reel that is still rated for the proper line weight, and even added lead to the reel. It was so much nicer to cast with the heavier reel, and much less fatigue. Holding it near the fulcrum simply requires less effort to move the rod tip when casting, its simple physics, and it fits on any rod, heavy or light.

I also understand that if the rod is held high and the line extends to the water surface, and needs to be mended appropriately, there is torque beyond the hand, and that can put demands on muscles that aren't ordinarily used for just elevating. Fatigue in those little used muscles can cause shorter periods of being able to hold that position.

That is why when you are looking for a reel that balances your rod, you must have the rod strung with a fair amount of line out the other end. Just putting an empty reel on the rod tells you little, you need to match the weight distribution that will be there when fishing.


And, yes, I understand the "feel" of carrying a setup that happens to - deliberately or not - put a "weight balance" at hand.
It doesn't do anything positive for casting or line handling.

The heck it doesn't.

The "weight balance" emphasis also begs the question about the number of reels required: What do you do if you have a 6.5-foot 5 wt rod; a 7'6" 5 wt; and a 9' 5 wt. - do you buy three different weight reels specific to each rod designed of a 4-6 wt capacity?

Yes, if you want to get the maximum from each rod, though sometimes we're all likely to sacrifice a little performance for money considerations. But when you say weight, we're not talking the rated line weight, we're talking scale weight. Different models, all rated for a 4/5 weight line, will still have different weights. And in the age of graphite, there isn't that much weight difference between rods, its likely one of your reels will balance multiple rods.

If you really want to tear up some muscle in your shoulder and neck - fish three big wets with a heavy line on a bamboo with a heavy reel while mending frequently and holding the rod in a semi-high stick position.

I do this sometimes, its not fatiguing at all. What is fatiguing is using the heavy rod with a light reel, or the heavy reel with a light rod.
 
Because I respect your opinions, I've been doing some re-thinking.

I'm still not convinced.

I just did a check of several different reel manufacturers' reel weights, and tried to keep it in the 4 to 6 line weight catagory. Though hardly a great sampling, the manufacturers I quickly found were Teton, Ross, Shilton, Cortland, and Lamson. (Some rate their reels more specifically, and others more broadly)

I tried to find the weight specs for rods, but they weren't available. But I do know that all rods are essentially tapered from butt to tip, with the heaviest portion in the handle, due to hardware. Of course some extended parabolic designs and some other non-standard designs may distribute the weight of the rod differently.
The number of guides on the rod, the type, number and placement of guides, the wrappings, the ferrules, or other types of joints, the finish.
The type and weight of the reel seat wood, if wood is used, the material of the handle - cork mostly, but other materials are used - whether the rod is graphite, glass, bamboo, or boron, or some composite, etc., all these factors affect the distribution of weight.
And again, the length of the rod within all the above.

So if you can agree that rods present the greatest variability in weight and weight distribution not only through rod design.

Then I thought about the variety of fly line dimensions and weight distributions therein, and distances from the rod that a drifting fly line would add (to contemplate the possible loading to the tip or torque), while holding the rod between casts, and, as with the capacities listed for the reels, thought about the variability with backing.
So there are weight forwards, double tapers, triangle tapers, shooting heads, and a couple of versions of the weight forward.

In general, fly reel weights for line weights 4-6 varied from a low of about 3.9 to a high of 5.6. (Also in general, large arbor reels have about .5 ounce or more weight than their regular arbor reels.) And that is significant, especially if one is trying to find a reel for an 1-ounce rod. And of course, some of the Hardys and some of the older fly reels that were designed for bamboo and glass were heavier than modern offerings.

Now, just within that range of variables, how can one advise finding a setup that is based on finding the rigged setup fulcrum point?
This question is focused on advising someone new to casting, on purchasing a reel and how important it is.

I said, I prefer the lightest reel I can find. To me, unless a rod were unusually unweildy, such as a broom handle (no taper), I would actually prefer to fish without a reel. But as of now, that isn't practical. I've done it, but handling the loose line is madness.

Primarily, this is so because I don't cast by using the fulcrum (weight balance) point as a pivot point for casting.
The butt of my flyrod doesn't significantly move relative to the attitude of the tip - or as a consequence of projecting the energy of the cast.
But then I essentially haul all the time. I use my left hand (line hand) all the time, for every cast, except when trying to get enough line out to cast, or some other machination not relevant to casting.

If I didn't, and used my wrist as a pivot point for casting, then I would expect such an overall weight balance would be much more important. But maintaining the planes of line travel would be much more difficult, especially at longer distances.
The movement of my wrist, in that it might resemble a pivoting, is to move the rod out of the way of the line, once the force of direction has stopped and the energy has been transferred to the line.

In spincasting, I do seem to cast with the reel area serving as the pivot and it is greatly enhanced when it also serves as a fulcrum point, when I snap the wrist. Sometimes an extended handle is good, as in surf casting, so I can use the counter energy (weight) to load and propel the rig farther.
In bait casting, the pivot area is in the wrist.

The only thing I can think of now, that would give merit to matching the point of weight balance at the hand or lower would be to help mediate (counter) the torque given the distance between the path of the flyline and the endpoint of the line. (In my case the left hand. In others it may be the right hand.)
So, I again advise that finding the lightest reel one can is important because it lessens the chance of having too heavy a reel, which is much more likely than too light a reel.

So I respectfully disagree with advising tyring to find the weight balance in the handle, especially knowing that each shop that does provide casting setups varies pretty much in its setup; that few shops will allow loading up several different reels with several different lines and leaders and allowing them to be tried out on a variety of rods.
But having said all that, I do appreciate what you are saying, and do appreciate the different points of view. It's fun to discuss and contemplate.

Vern
 
Vern,

Man you are a deep thinker...

In short, the desired balance discussed above is not for the cast but for the drift. So the rod isn't as heavy in the hand. Afterall, you spend more time fishing than casting. (I hope) I should have said that in my post directly. That was my point about having the balance include the line fed through the guides and down to the water or ground.

And if a fly shop won't let you put a few reels on a fly rod before you buy it, well, put it back on the shelf.
 
Maurice,

I disagree somewhat, I think it also affects the cast, but your point about the drift is still valid.

Vern,

You're going a little deeper than you need to. To be 100% exact about getting the balance you want, yeah, you gotta take into account the taper, leader, guides, etc. But in reality, the difference in balance point between a DT 5 wt and a WF 5 wt is negligible. And most graphite rods are similar in weight. For instance, I use the same reel on a 9 ft 5 wt Loomis as I do on a 7.5 ft 5 wt Cortland. The Cortland rod is shorter, but its a bit lower modulus too, so they're pretty close to equal. Most modern reels are made to balance an equal line weight rated graphite rod fairly well. It's when you get into bamboo, glass, or going the other way, boron that you have to think a little. Also those little 6 ft brookie rods might be tricky.

As far as the physics of it (I do have a physics degree). I do, or at least try to do, the short casting stroke championed by Humphries and others. Just a squeeze basically, a push with the thumb and pulling with the pinky side of the hand.

It's a simple lever. With an unbalanced rod (i.e. the fulcrum is far from where you apply the force) you need to apply less maximum force, but you need to do it over a longer distance. It's called mechanical advantage, and an unbalanced rod results in the need for a sweeping arm motion, the opposite of a short casting stroke. The fulcrum may not be in your hand, it might be above or below, but the rod is still rotating about that ponit. By having a balanced rod, you're applying the force nearer the fulcrum, more maximum force is needed, but for a shorter distance. The rod tip is faster than the hand (assuming the rod is longer than the arm), and thats the key. A higher force over a shorter distance results in higher line speed than can be generated with a lower force over a longer distance. Fatigue is a function of overall work, which is force times distance. In a lever system, the work is the same provided the movement of the tip is the same, so its a wash. But generating the higher line speed, thus more momentum, with the same amount of work, means the process is more efficient. With a balanced rod, you can either do the same amount of work and get better results, or do less work and get equal results. Results, of course, being defined in this case as line speed, which translates to casting distance or ease, however you look at it.

The trend for modern rods is to go lighter (from bamboo to glass to graphite to higher modulus graphite and now boron has made an appearance). This is a way of lessening the force needed, and thus with a balanced system, you are lessening the force needed and retaining that very little needed movement to generate your line speed. In other words, its more efficient.

Now, I love all my rods, including the bamboo one, but in the scientific, measurable sort of way it is inferior to a good graphite rod. It forces me into more sweeping arm motions, and thats why its inferior. But well, even if its not scientifically the best, most efficient way to do things, I enjoy it, and the low line speed can be an advantage when trying to lay down a size 26 trico on flat water without drag, something the science of efficient casting motion doesn't take into account. If you enjoy that type of casting, don't let me be the one to change your mind, after all, enjoyment is what this game is all about.
 
This topic seems fairly well covered - but I need to chime in.

I generally fish small to medium sized waters with a 7 or 7.5 ft, 3 or 4 wt. rod. These rods are fairly light. After reading Vince Marinaro - who recommended the lightest reel you could find. I did some testing.

For my casting style, my small stream rods all cast best with the lightest reel I could find. Sure, you could practice and cast fairly well with many different combos - but I found that the light reels allowed me to control the line in the air much better.

You can definitely feel the action of the rod being affected by the weight of the reel.

I don't think it is limited to the weight of the reel - I found that the action of the rod, especially when throwing aerial mends, slack-line casts, and other types of "specialty" casts was negatively affected by the moment of inertia of the reel, based on it's shape.

For example I found that with my particular rods, a wide-spoled large arbor reel, made casting miserable and a chore. Where as with a reel of a similar weight, but of a more traditional design - the casting felt more natural to me.

People, will probably say this is all in my head - maybe it is, but give me a regular arbor, Orvis Battenkilll or C.F.O. anyday.

So I'd say for the most pleasant experience you need to match the rod with the reel very carefully - for your style of casting. And so this will be something very different for every angler.
 
Thank you guys for replying so well. That’s what makes this such a great forum.
I hope mgh-pa gets a good reel.
pcray123:
I don’t have the level of academic background in physics, so I appreciate your viewpoint.
Not to belabor this topic, but I would have to say that, from a physics viewpoint, I’ve learned to consider fly casting to be a combination of two machines – the bow spring and pulley.
And I suppose therein lies our different views.
A fly rod appears to me to be half a bow (spring) rigged with a set of sheaves or pulleys.
Once the dual machine is set to be loaded, i.e., the line is pulled straight to convey energy transfer most efficiently, I see the potential energy imparted to the spring through the resistance of the line (friction on the water, inertia, and weight) to move through the pulley ( the set of line guides) plus the force of pull on the line through the pulley (the haul with my left hand), and any additional forces imparted through movement of the spring just prior to the peak of resistance. (The friction has to be present prior to movement of the spring, or greatest potential loading isn’t possible).
Now of course a bow has two limbs, the upper countering the lower in direction, thus moving its energy through the center of the two limbs.
The rod spring has one limb, the base of which is held by the hand. Thus the movement of energy – as expressed through movement direction of the line - varies along the limb, but close to the point of stress of flex.
The addition of weight at the hand, or below the hand, therefore can be used to stabilize the spring base, effectively countering the force of resistance of the limb. For me, that weight is my body. I cast as though the rod is an extension of my forearm. My left hand manipulates the line forces through the pulley.
That weight can also be used by application (breaking the wrist and creating a pivot point in the spring (rod) at the handle) to convert the simple spring into a cantilevered spring, such as a springboard. For this, the weight of the reel is ready for application. But when cantilevered use is not desired, the reel weight needs to be countered (thus some of the wrist-lock devices).
And I understand the merits of this use as a cantilever in certain fishing applications. (I hope I’m not speaking out of school, but I’m familiar with and know that Humphrey’s “pop” with the thumb at the end of the cast is a fishing cast application he derived as a teaching tool in order to effectively get students to get approximately the right amount of overpowering of the cast for tuck casting, as well as pinpointing short dry fly casts, instead of learning to do so by non-cantilevered means.)
However, I also suspect that by emphasizing the use of the rod as a cantilevered spring, the stress of flex is more likely to be concentrated along a consistent area in the spring. (Which seems that it could lead to premature rod fatigue and/or breakage at that region, as well as limit comfortable casting range.)
Whereas, it seems to me, through practice, that if the spring (rod) is not used in a cantilevered manner (such as without a reel), the point of stress of flex can be more easily manipulated along the entirety of the spring.
But, as you pointed out, and I wholeheartedly agree, the point of it all is to find enjoyment in fishing, and whatever works for you is good.
I’d like to learn more and be able to express it as succinctly as possible. Can you suggest any good reads on the physics of the fly casting or bow springs?
 
Vern,

I never really read up on it that much. Do a google search for "physics of fly casting" and you'll likely come up with some simple reading material, and names of authors if you want to get more serious. Unless you really want to get into the math of it, I think it's pretty straight forward. Of course, doing it is a different thing altogether, I can talk a good game but I'm really not a very good caster. :)

The rod indeed acts as a spring. This is a whole separate physics description from the hand on the rod. That was describing the best way to transfer energy from the hand to the rod, what you are talking about is how to transfer energy from the rod to the line. Doing both as efficiently as possible, obviously, leads to the most efficient cast, but it is two seperate energy transfers that have almost nothing to do with each other. The transfer from rod tip to line has almost nothing to do with the weight of the reel either, provided the weight of the reel is below the fulcrum, and I've never seen a rod so misbalanced that this isn't the case.

The spring action of the rod: Think of it as potential and kinetic energy, the rod stores the energy as potential energy. Line straight out on the water, you moving the rod tip back is "loading" the rod, like loading a spring. A haul here adds a little more energy. You should always be accelerating back, so that you're continuously loading it more and more and not allowing it to unload any of that energy before you want it to, and the line stays straight so that its weight and friction is always at a maximum. You unload the rod by abruptly stopping the rod tip, which changes all that potential energy stored in the rod into kinetic energy in the line, throwing it behind you. This stopping of the rod should be done at a height so that the line follows a straight line back. Now you want to wait until the line straightens out, so that when you start the forward stroke, you are pulling against the maximum weight AND momentum of the line, another haul here adds even more energy to the rod. You accelerate the stroke as before. That keeps the line straight behind the rod tip, i.e. maximum loading. Again you stop the rod and transfer the potential energy in the rod into kinetic energy in the line.

In a vacuum, you can keep right on going, adding more and more energy with each back/forward stroke, and cast really, really far. In reality, air resistance takes its toll, and when you reach a certain energy in the line air resistance takes it at the same rate you add it. This is why shooting a line is successful, you have enough energy in the system to cast that line, but you don't want it flinging around because then its adding more air resistance and taking away energy during the false casting.

When describing energy transfer from rod to line, its actually much more like a whip than a bow or lever. And just like a whip, the less stiff the line the better it'll be. Those old silk lines were actually far superior in casting mechanics as a modern line, of course most of us are willing to sacrifice that performance so we don't have that horrible maintenance. And unfortunately, the most efficient cast ends in the Orvis model "arm forward" pose and a straight line and leader. From a fishing perspective, you want to shock the line before it hits the water so that you DON'T straighten the leader or the line, that Orvis model might score distance points but he's a crappy fisherman. ;)

As far as the action of the rod: Do a casting motion without any line. When you stop the rod, say, on a backcast, the momentum of the rod itself will actually slightly load the rod in preparation for a forward cast, thats without any line whatsoever. You want that maximum natural loading to occur precisely as you would start the forward cast, you're getting more energy in the rod than the line itself will impart. It's a timing thing. When Humphries talks about loading a rod without a backcast by "getting it in motion", this is what he's talking about, and its incredibly useful in tight brush situations, if only I could actually get the timing right.....

Of course, that timing is different depending on a lot of factors, but mainly, on how fast the line straightens out behind you, which is a function of how fast you threw it back to begin with. So, the most efficient action depends on the caster, and how fast they are moving the line, the action itself doesn't move the line any quicker. However, the successful distance casters do generate more momentum in a cast due to higher line speed, and thus a faster action is going to fit them better. If your casting stroke is slower, then you're most efficient action is slower.
 
Wow, talk about information. I see the point about matching the reel with the rod in terms of mechanical advantage (well I suppose less mechanical advantage in this case would result in less work? Balanced rod means you must create more force, but apply it over a shorter distance, right?). Anyways, is there something to be said about LA reels over standard arbor reels in terms of achieving that sweet spot? I suppose I just need to get to a fly shop and cast some.
 
Back
Top