Hostile Takeover in Coal Country

[silverfox]

There's a stream near me that has been surveyed several times over the years that I'd like them to survey again now. The last 3 times I've fished it I didn't find a single brookie. It used to be almost 100% brookies. It's a little stream with stream "improvement" projects on it and all of the plunge pools they created have 1 to 3 LARGE browns in them and nothing else.

The stream feeds a larger stocked stream that has thermal issues and the browns have pretty much taken that stream over too. They run up the little trib for thermal relief and because hardly nobody fishes it. I'd really like to see current survey data to see if my personal observations are correct.

The bigger question is, what can be done about it and does anyone even care? At what point does the loss of brook trout start to concern people?

 

[jifigz]

silverfox wrote:
There's a stream near me that has been surveyed several times over the years that I'd like them to survey again now. The last 3 times I've fished it I didn't find a single brookie. It used to be almost 100% brookies. It's a little stream with stream "improvement" projects on it and all of the plunge pools they created have 1 to 3 LARGE browns in them and nothing else.

The stream feeds a larger stocked stream that has thermal issues and the browns have pretty much taken that stream over too. They run up the little trib for thermal relief and because hardly nobody fishes it. I'd really like to see current survey data to see if my personal observations are correct.

The bigger question is, what can be done about it and does anyone even care? At what point does the loss of brook trout start to concern people?

Yes, people care.

Two things can happen that would benefit brookies in a big way. 1) PFBC can stop stocking trout in any watershed that connects to wild brookies. Then much larger stockies couldn't just weasel in and displace and eat brookies at will and for thermal refuge. 2) you can start waging a war on these browns and any trout population you feel is harming the brookies by upping the amount of fish in your diet (following all laws, of course.)

 

[Chaz]

Displacement of brook brook trout in this day and age should never happen. Pfbc has never met their mission which has always been conservation of trout and fishes in general. Every opportunity has been given to them to do the right thing, that is protect native species, at every opportunity they have failed.

 

[Mike]

The new modification to the PFBC trout plan includes the following:
• Between 2020 and 2022, Area Fisheries Managers will eliminate the stocking of Brook Trout in watersheds where wild Brook Trout are present. Rainbow Trout and/or Brown Trout will be stocked in place of Brook Trout.

The plan modification also mentions looking into stocking more triploids.

In my view, both items above would be favorable for wild ST.

My note: When choosing to stock RT, pH has traditionally been of greater concern with RT than with BT. In the past guidance was to not stock RT at pH’s less than 6.5. It was found in the past 15 yrs or so that PFBC RT were surviving at slightly lower pH’s in the mid- low 6’s. I don’t know if it was tried at a pH as low as 6.0, however. This makes a difference when selecting which species to stock in basins that support wild ST when a stocking program is going to be continued in such basins since wild ST are present at even lower pH’s. You can see where having triploid BT available might be helpful in such situations if stocking is to be continued in stream sections with marginal pH’s or less than acceptable pH’s for RT.

 

[troutbert]

Swattie87 wrote:

Recovering AMD streams are often re-populated by Brook Trout first...They have better low PH tolerance than Browns. Yet as the watershed recovers, Browns find their way in and begin to take over.

I think the explanation was right here in the OP.

I don't know what streams you were on, but it sounds like Schuylkill County, or nearby.

I fished a bunch of those AMD streams in the 1990s and caught only brook trout, no browns at all.

I haven't fished those streams in recent years, but have heard from others that they've been catching wild browns in the same stretches of the streams that we fished in the 1990s and caught only brookies.

The explanation, IMHO, is all pH based. Below a certain pH, there will be no fish at all, of any species.

Then there is range of pH above that where brook trout can live, but brown trout cannot. When we fished there in the 1990s, that was the situation.

But as more AMD treatments were installed throughout these watersheds, they are adding lime, so the pH was raised, putting it in the range where browns can survive. And where the conditions are favorable for brown trout in PA, they almost always show up.

IMHO, there are not many places in PA, where the conditions are suitable for wild browns, that they aren't present.

They are very widely distributed, and they can swim, including moving through and living in large "warmwater" streams and rivers during the cold and cool months of the year.

In that area, even though we caught only brookies in the 1990s, it was known at the time that there were wild browns in some of the streams further down in the watershed.

So, I think as the pH rose from the AMD treatments, the browns just moved up from below, and populated the habitat.

I don't think it's necessarily due to anyone stocking those streams.

 

[silverfox]

troutbert wrote:

So, I think as the pH rose from the AMD treatments, the browns just moved up from below, and populated the habitat.

I don't think it's necessarily due to anyone stocking those streams.

I think one of the difficult things in talking about these situations throughout Pennsylvania is we have an extremely varied set of situations. I know in some cases browns have moved into brook trout streams simply through migratory expansion. In others, there is absolutely zero chance they got there on their own.

One of the worst cases that I'm familiar with is without question due to stocking. I can unequivocally state that the browns didn't move in there from somewhere else on their own.

Those are the situations where it's really sad in my opinion. Where "we", the people charged with protecting the resource actively degraded it. Assuming you hold native fish with a higher value than wild non-native fish.

 

[k-bob]

Given that both are discussed w acronyms starting w "A" for Acid, I think I have tended to expect too much in common between acid rain and acid mine drainage.

Acid rain just seems simpler... what does local geology do to neutralize the acidity, if anything much. Study the water pH. Maybe with super low buffering bedrock, study the dissolved aluminum. Can do either with test kits that cost less than a hundred and fifty bucks. At the extreme, some of those streams in the Michaux forest with the white quartzite Bedrock have a lethal level levels of aluminum for brookies at low summer flows that would only increase w rain or snow.

AMD I think it's just more complex... I have also seen carbon/schuyk coal country streams known to have large mine tunnel inputs w/ browns and brookies ... didn't expect the browns.

 

[Chaz]

Stocking any trout or non native fish in brookie stream should halt immediately!!!!

 

[Fredrick]

Troy wrote:

Fredrick wrote:
So weird I thought Brown Trout were naturalized and the damage was done already . I guess this goes without saying that if you released a brown trout in your lifetime you are no better than me for releasing a snakehead . Don't be a hypocrite...……………..

Blah, blah, Snakeheads, blah, blah.

One good thing about you fishing for those ugly *** fish is that there is one less person on trout streams. Keep on fishing that **** water! Have at it!

Troy its almost trout time for me , just make sure you don't ever get caught fishing behind me, you'd be better off going home and watching TV :lol: