Help! SNAKE!

[krayfish2]

My nephew saw this critter in the driveway Saturday afternoon. I wish he would have called me as I would have come up to capture / examine the little bugger.

It was in the 10" - 12" range. When I first saw it, I thought it was a baby king snake but it's more spots than bands. I'm thinking that's a baby rattler. Any thoughts?

 

[Dave_W]

It's a baby blacksnake.

 

[krayfish2]

Didn't know they had that many markings on them as juveniles. I thought they were always either grey or black in color when smaller.

 

[FarmerDave]

Dave_W wrote:
It's a baby blacksnake.

I'll second that. I'm thinking baby black rat snake.

 

[FarmerDave]

krayfish2 wrote:
Didn't know they had that many markings on them as juveniles. I thought they were always either grey or black in color when smaller.

Markings can be very similar, but that one is not a rattler. 99.8% sure. ;-) Resolution isn't good enough for me to say 100%.

Head isn't the right shape, body is too skinny, and I think rattle snakes are born with one "rattle."

And BTW, rat snakes can flatten their head to look like a rattler, so even that isn't always a great indicator.

At a quick glance, the markings look very similar to Eastern Massasauga, but EM are extremely rare. Some experts say it no longer exists in PA.

Don't go by Google images for identification because many of the snakes identified on there as baby timber rattlers are ... not. IMO of course.

 

[Lkyboots]

We still have a few Massasauga rattlers in Merced Co. i had a hunter tell me he lost his pointer after getting bit last season. They're mostly located North of Mercer in a area called Rattlesnake Swamp. Otter creek runs through the swamp. That's the only place I've ever heard of any one seeing one.

 

[salmonoid]

FarmerDave wrote:

krayfish2 wrote:
Didn't know they had that many markings on them as juveniles. I thought they were always either grey or black in color when smaller.

Markings can be very similar, but that one is not a rattler. 99.8% sure. ;-) Resolution isn't good enough for me to say 100%.

Head isn't the right shape, body is too skinny, and I think rattle snakes are born with one "rattle."

And BTW, rat snakes can flatten their head to look like a rattler, so even that isn't always a great indicator.

At a quick glance, the markings look very similar to Eastern Massasauga, but EM are extremely rare. Some experts say it no longer exists in PA.

Don't go by Google images for identification because many of the snakes identified on there as baby timber rattlers are ... not. IMO of course.

Correct - not a rattler, because it is a baby black snake

I can't find my picture of a baby rattler, but they look unmistakably like a baby rattlesnake. When I found the first baby black snake on my property years ago, I thought it was a copperhead, based on the markings and a lack of desire to get too close to it for positive ID. But I later found out it was a little black snake, and presumably the markings are for camo purposes.

 

[jifigz]

It is definitely a baby black rat snake. Now, the problem with snake identification here in PA is telling apart an adult black racer from an adult black rat snake. Even herpetologists struggle with that.

My favorite, and most common, snake misidentification is when people always claim to see copperheads.....they are almost always northern watersnakes.

 

[Doug]

Massasaugas definitely still exist in norther Butler county... at least as of last year, when I last saw one.

 

[nymphingmaniac]

jifigz,
Sorry to be contrary but even amateur herper can easily identify a black rat from a black racer. There are differences in the scales. Furthermore, black rat snakes still have the faded pattern from their juvenile stage showing through, especially when they stretch out during movement. Finally, racers have a white/gray belly while black rats have a checkered pattern.

The remnants of the black rat snake pattern is responsible for its name. elaphe obsoleta, obsoleta. from obsolete- to fade/wear out

 

[jifigz]

nymphingmaniac wrote:
jifigz,
Sorry to be contrary but even amateur herper can easily identify a black rat from a black racer. There are differences in the scales. Furthermore, black rat snakes still have the faded pattern from their juvenile stage showing through, especially when they stretch out during movement. Finally, racers have a white/gray belly while black rats have a checkered pattern.

The remnants of the black rat snake pattern is responsible for its name. elaphe obsoleta, obsoleta. from obsolete- to fade/wear out

Upon some research, you're right. There are some clear yet somewhat subtle differences. I'm not sure what I was thinking..

Coolest snake I've ever seen in PA was a rough green snake. I've only ever seen one but I don't really go looking for snakes..

 

[falcon]

Its a juvenile Black Rat Snake. They eventually become black as they mature and get larger (they can get very large). They are docile creatures. They can be found on the ground and in trees.

 

[dc410]

I have encountered some “not so docile” black rat snakes as well!

 

[poopdeck]

Rat snake. 100% positive, no question about it. I really enjoy the responses to Internet snake ID's

 

[FarmerDave]

Lkyboots wrote:
We still have a few Massasauga rattlers in Merced Co. i had a hunter tell me he lost his pointer after getting bit last season. They're mostly located North of Mercer in a area called Rattlesnake Swamp. Otter creek runs through the swamp. That's the only place I've ever heard of any one seeing one.

Good to hear they are still around, but sorry to hear that your friend lost a dog to one.

I looked it up and apparently there are still at least 4 areas in NWPA where they still exist, and for Doug, Butler county is one of those places according to multiple sources.

There are also some in Ashtabula County, Ohio which explains my interest in them.

I looked at some maps, and it seems I used to hunt and train my dog in an area that apparently had/has them, but I never saw one.

 

[FarmerDave]

dc410 wrote:
I have encountered some “not so docile” black rat snakes as well!

Yea, I've seen this too. Some have an attitude.

I don't harass them unless it is to move them away from where I want to mow, and it seems smaller ones can get agitated rather quickly.

I am no expert, but it seems the larger ones are less aggressive. Same with humans. ;-)

 

[falcon]

handle a Black rat Snake and they settle down quickly. The other black snake commonly seen s the Northern Racer and they are very fast and aggressive.

 

[Perkasiezeb]

young rat snake

 

[FarmerDave]

falcon wrote:
handle a Black rat Snake and they settle down quickly.

Maybe so, but I aint that patient. ;-)

 

[Prospector]

Lkyboots wrote:
We still have a few Massasauga rattlers in Merced Co. i had a hunter tell me he lost his pointer after getting bit last season. They're mostly located North of Mercer in a area called Rattlesnake Swamp. Otter creek runs through the swamp. That's the only place I've ever heard of any one seeing one.

There are also some in Butler Co near Jennings Nature Reserve and between Slippery Rock and Grove City, where a bridge replacement had to be delayed a few years ago until the Massasaugas vacated their winter den under the bridge.