Heavy Penns Brown

[mt_flyfisher]

Kudos on the photos, and the fish, Heberly.

Not being much of a photographer myself, I do have a couple questions. First, are these pictures of the same fish? They look markedly different to me. Perhaps it's just my old eyes.

And, do you think that trout might be a runner (i.e. a fish that migrated from a larger river downstream to spawn)? In my 50 years of fishing Penns Creek, and in the same section of the stream as you, I have never seen a brown that looked like yours in the top picture.

As an aside, when I first began fishing Penns, I heard stories of nearly 30" Browns (which in reality were likely not really that large, but nice fish nonetheless) being caught in that section of the stream. That was back in the days when fishermen could still ride the train to get in and out of there.

John

 

[troutbert]

mt_flyfisher wrote:

As an aside, when I first began fishing Penns, I heard stories of nearly 30" Browns (which in reality were likely not really that large, but nice fish nonetheless) being caught in that section of the stream. That was back in the days when fishermen could still ride the train to get in and out of there.

John

When did that rail line shut down?

 

[IdratherbePhishing]

I have also seen what I believe to be stocked Brooks through this section. Buddy caught one a while ago near poe

 

[PennKev]

IdratherbePhishing wrote:
I have also seen what I believe to be stocked Brooks through this section. Buddy caught one a while ago near poe

Wild brookies are not unheard of in that stretch. There are several small tributary streams in the vicinity that hold them.

 

[afishinado]

Excellent pics...great fish.

Over the years, Penns has almost never has been a "numbers" stream or a trophy trout stream either, at least for me It usually gives up some quality fish in the 12-16" range, but I have never caught any huge fish. I would guess I've landed a handful of 18" or maybe 19" trout on Penns in all the years I've fished it.

 

[Fishidiot]

IdratherbePhishing wrote:
I have also seen what I believe to be stocked Brooks through this section. Buddy caught one a while ago near poe

No surprise. You can find hatchery trout in just about every watershed in PA as long as temps are cold enough and the watershed is clear of obstacles to downriver fish movement. They show up in bass lakes, big rivers, etc. It doesn't necessarily mean that local folks are bucket stocking under the radar (although this could certainly be the case). I'm only saying that the presence of a hatchery trout or three shouldn't be cause for sounding alarms.

 

[Fishidiot]

mt_flyfisher wrote:
In my 50 years of fishing Penns Creek, and in the same section of the stream as you, I have never seen a brown that looked like yours in the top picture.
John

Interesting - I'm assuming you're referencing spots - I can't see anything else unique about this fish other than the very large size(?).

I think we all noted the sparse spotting on this beautiful fish. Such pics invariably start a debate about strains of trout: Loch Levens vs. Germans etc (I think such efforts to identify modern day PA wild brown trout strains based on spotting are pointless). Letort is known for having a lot of sparse spotted fish like this. However, I think if you look at enough wild browns, you'll see fish like this just about anywhere. The beauty that Pcray posted in post #24 is a pretty sparse spotted Penns brownie.

Interesting whatever the case.

 

[Heberly]

In response to 'what did it take' a size 16 orange dot frenchie.

I've found this time of the year, the fishing can not only be fantastic, but relatively simple. It seems to me, if you can get a natural drift, and get the presentation in front of the trout, they will take.

We had caught some suckers in the pool during the day, mixed with a brown, here and there. So, after a while, every time something felt heavy we looked at each other and said, got a sucker on again!

When I hooked this fish, I immediately thought it was a sucker, however I then realized it was acting much different. The suckers seemed to give about 10 seconds of 'I don't want to leave the depths' then just roll in... This fish would not come out of the depths.

It wasn't until I moved downstream, and crossed over to the other side so I could pierce through the glare of the water, that I finally saw it. Prior to this point, I was still moderately convinced it was a sucker, but I saw that torpedo shape.

Initially I thought it was a rainbow, I couldn't see any spots...

I yelled to my friend, hoping he could at least give me a visual confirmation. I mentioned from across the stream, I think it's about 20" he finally saw it, and slowly looked up stating, try 24!

Not to get too emotional over it, but it was a great moment between friends. Neither of us have ever caught a fish like this, nor have we seen one in the central pa range, at least not in person.

The fish ended up where the pool broke into riffles, and attempted to hide under a huge boulder. I reached in, held the tail and pulled it out, and well wow.

More penns browns attached

 

[mt_flyfisher]

Sorry, Fishidiot. Yes, I was referring to its lack of spots. And, perhaps that is due to the black and white photo - because the color picture of just the head alone shows lots of spots and coloration, which is why I wondered if these were the same fish...? Also, the jaws on those 2 fish look different, although they are taken from a different angle.

I have seen several other fish taken in Penns that I would think were of similar size, although it is hard to tell from a memory that goes back 50 years, compared to a picture from today.

I've caught a couple pretty large fish myself, including ones caught at night on drys, and saw a monster caught on a size 16 Adams one of the first times I fished Penns while a student at PSU during the mid-60's.

Honestly, I don't remember if trains were still running there at that time, but as I recall the tracks were removed sometime around 1970, and a number of the ties that had been pushed aside at that time floated downstream with Agnes, some of which can still be seen scattered here and there today.

Riding the train in there was before my time, but I used to know an Oldtimer who owned property near the Poe Paddy tunnel (now, I'm the Oldtimer!) and he told of when he and his father used to come in by train, and then put out a flag for the train to stop to pick them up to take them home. I still remember the story he told us one night while sitting around the campfire at Poe Paddy of how his dad caught a 30" brown at the lower end of Broad Water. True, or not, those made for wonderful tales, and certainly kept me coming back with the hopes of getting one like that myself sometime.

(Now, my own fireside story is of a 34" brown caught on a Montana river one night, on a small dry fly. Tape measured and verified.)

 

[Heberly]

MT-

The fish are not the same, two different fish, two different shots.

 

[geebee]

And, do you think that trout might be a runner (i.e. a fish that migrated from a larger river downstream to spawn)?

i would bet yes - and Jeff's fish last week.

i think its more common than people know - browns run from the sea into rivers, from lakes into streams, and from rivers into tribs, to spawn and feed in the winter.

i've always suspected that these stocked streams and marginal streams that would technically be empty in winter have a transient population of 'runners' as you call them - good name ;-) - browns are cold water fish and there is still food there and no or little competition for it - a wild 20" + fish is going to out muscle the cookie cutter 12-14" locals and take the prime feeding lies.

I would think in both cases (heberlys and Jeffs) those fish are stream born and migrate to the depths of the Susquehanna in spring til the late fall.

in all the cases of runners i've caught - sea-run, lake-run or trib run, the common factor has been the lack of spots. which i believe is related to the fact that the brood stock was originally scottish and sea-run as Loch Leven empties into Loch Linnie which empties into the sea, rather than German and landlocked.

of course, if it wasn't for the dams then they'd all run to the sea like they do in Europe and South America....and NJ !

 

[pcray1231]

I think fish do migrate a lot, and a lot of big fish statewide represent fish that grew big somewhere else.

That said, Penns Creek is not one such place that I'd immediately suspect it. Not that it doesn't happen, but it doesn't NEED to happen to have fish like this. It's big water on it's own, and has more than enough food to grow big fish. Further, unlike some small streams, it's not like there's a bunch of 7-10 inchers and then a few 20 inchers with nothing in between. Average fish are in the 10-12 range, 12-16" fish are very common, and 16-20" fish are rare but not that rare. Pretty standard year classing if you ask me.

The upper limit on size in Penns Creek is likely determined by water temperatures. Penns does get marginal at times. Big fish struggle in marginal temps moreso than small fish. Get a couple of cool summers in a row and I bet the # of large fish increases. Get a drought year and it decreases...

 

[Heberly]

pcray1231 wrote:
I think fish do migrate a lot, and a lot of big fish statewide represent fish that grew big somewhere else.

That said, Penns Creek is not one such place that I'd immediately suspect it. Not that it doesn't happen, but it doesn't NEED to happen to have fish like this. It's big water on it's own, and has more than enough food to grow big fish. Further, unlike some small streams, it's not like there's a bunch of 7-10 inchers and then a few 20 inchers with nothing in between. Average fish are in the 10-12 range, 12-16" fish are very common, and 16-20" fish are rare but not that rare. Pretty standard year classing if you ask me.

The upper limit on size in Penns Creek is likely determined by water temperatures. Penns does get marginal at times. Big fish struggle in marginal temps moreso than small fish. Get a couple of cool summers in a row and I bet the # of large fish increases. Get a drought year and it decreases...

Cray, I'm not discounting your view on the warmer water on penns, however I guess I see it the opposite. I feel penns holds larger fish BECAUSE of warmer water in summer. This is just opinion of course.

I guess what I see is, penns gets warm, small/medium fish are not getting the best, coldest spots to summer over because the larger fish are keeping them out, so we see the survival of the fittest... Big fish survive, just by brute force and position, the smaller ones are often seen floating, or caught by birds, as they are left to take the least attractive holding positions. It seems to be a great classifier in the case of penns.

Yes, it's harder for the larger fish to summer over, I agree 100%, but can you see how the warmer waters are re-classifying size class on penns?

Opposite example would be Spring in my opinion... there is no real mechanism to class the fish. Water is cold year round, plenty of food, so competition for food seems to be nil.

Just an observation I had, what are your thoughts?

 

[jifigz]

What is your rough estimate of size of that Brown? My largest wild Brown was a 24" 5 lb fish and since that time, which was several years ago, I haven't come anywhere close to that size of a Brown trout.

 

[Heberly]

jifigz wrote:
What is your rough estimate of size of that Brown? My largest wild Brown was a 24" 5 lb fish and since that time, which was several years ago, I haven't come anywhere close to that size of a Brown trout.

I don't know, I don't carry a tape. I think to be safe 22-24" ? I could measure something from my attire and scale it from there but haven't done so yet.

 

[BrookieChaser]

First off, Heberly, congrats on a good fish.

We've probably passed each other on Penns this winter.

My big fish from Penns have always had a lot of spots, but a phenotype thread already exists on this board. I don't buy that all migratory fish have sparse spots as geebee is selling. That's like saying "everyone that enjoys the outdoors in PA is of Iroquois decent".

On rainbows, I've caught more this year than any other. There seems to be a concentration of them around Coburn. I caught 6" ones with parr marks up to 12" ones. Hopefully they'll be brown trout food this winter.

 

[geebee]

i'd estimate that at 22". helluva of a fish.

measure it from the width of your four fingers.

 

[jifigz]

Why is there confusion on where Rainbows came From on page 3? The PFBC has stocked Stream heavily with Rainbows for years....so isn't that probably where they came from?

 

[geebee]

. I don't buy that all migratory fish have sparse spots as geebee is selling. That's like saying "everyone that enjoys the outdoors in PA is of Iroquois decent".

thats just my personal experience on the Blackwater & Bandon rivers in Ireland, the MerryMeeting in NH, and the Stillwater in MA.

which are all wild fish.

i was just offering one explanation, i'm not saying its law.

 

[Stenonema]

My how things change with time. I remember years ago fishing Penns in the winter and never seeing another foot print. I'm glad that more fisherman are exploring the cold water months.
I am also glad to see more fisherman exploring the migration aspect of our sport. I feel this attribute is very overlooked and always has been in this state. Of course I am not writing about the migration of Lake to Stream or just movement for spawn by resident trout. Trout that migrate throughout a watershed and utilize the tributaries to spawn. These larger than average trout hide from the warm weather angler by being somewhere else, usually in open water or what most fisherman would consider bass and carp water. The early Black stone hatch reveals these trout very well as they are sure to take advantage of this hatch and show themselves. (Hint). The cold weather fisherman finds these adult trout. This topic is new and hopefully in the future will gain strength. If Penns had this genetic I would beleive that it would be much more common to find large trout 24' and up. The trout that have the genetic that I am referring to grow very large and are considered a fluke when caught by the unknowing angler. This being just another example of how these populations hide themselves from the public. Where these fish do exist however there is not anything the PFBC can do regulatory to protect them in the open water as of yet. We all should know that one fisherman can destroy this genetic at it's most vulnerable point. The value of 300 of these fish is understated by some but take the time to consider at 900 eggs per lb. their value. The value of such fish have not been realized and probably won't until the genetics are recognized as valuable.
Our conservation groups have a fight fire mentality. The amount of funds that have been spent in terms of the stream itself is astounding but the genetics of fish many generations deep and the adaptations of those fish are not replaceable. Where these genetics exist the only protection they have is us (the fisherman). In a stream that only has a handful of adult fish returning they have value. The potential of these fish is unrealized. Could Spring creek be an example of where this genetic once existed but has been devastated or others that have been once filled with large wild browns?