wildtrout2
Well-known member
To this day, I've never seen one.
Guiding
- Thread starter Trails and trout
- Start date
I’ve been fortunate enough to have a couple of young fellas guide me that were former members of the youth fly fishing team. By the time they were guiding they were in their early 20s and no longer teenagers but they were excellent guides and taught me a lot more than most guides I’ve fished with. And watching them cast and fish I would say that they were easily in the 90th percentile of anglers that I’ve fished with. I enjoy fishing with young guides that are absolute nerds about fly fishing…in general I think they make the absolute best guides. I’ve certainly had my share of bad guides and many of them were older and burnt out with no hustle. If you give me a choice between a 17yo fly fishing nerd and a veteran guide more often than not I’m gonna choose the kid.
DomR
Active member
Well unfortunately that statement includes many daily life and work activities in addition just fly fishing. People are wired different now, they expect to be led to gratification and have only minimal learning curve.
In my 45 years of fishing I've used guides exactly twice. Once was cause my 10 yo son and I wanted to bass fish within the confines of Epcot in WDW, the only way to do so was to take a guide trip.
The other time was for trout in Arizona, I had a 1/2 day free on a family trip but didn't have any gear, needed access to Oak Creek, and I wanted to fish for wild fish not stocked triploid rainbows. Hence the need for a guide there, even though it was a walk and wade stream . He turned out to be a PA transplant who'd fished all over central PA and the Pocono's, we hit it off well and he got me into the wild browns I wanted.
Otherwise I agree with others above, absent needing a guide for a float trip, most of the eastern waters that are walk and wade really have no need. Especially public waters in eastern PA and anything in NJ (yes there are guides that hit NJ public waters for stockies!)
dryflyguy
Well-known member
I've never felt the need to hire a guide.
Even during my trips out west.
But I've always been a person who likes to do things for myself.
Look forward to the challenge of exploring new waters, and trying to figure things out
With my own flies.
Just makes success more rewarding IMO
Been like that with other things in my life too
I do all the remodeling on the house
And all the maintenance on ours cars.
Even during my trips out west.
But I've always been a person who likes to do things for myself.
Look forward to the challenge of exploring new waters, and trying to figure things out
With my own flies.
Just makes success more rewarding IMO
Been like that with other things in my life too
I do all the remodeling on the house
And all the maintenance on ours cars.
PennKev
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2006
- Messages
- 3,381
Agreed. If he tries it for a few years and it ain't working, he is not any worse off than someone who has just completed college and only has a junk degree and a mountain of debt to show for it. If anything, he'll be better off.
Bamboozle
Well-known member
Bamboozle
Well-known member
From Ed Zern:
Swattie87
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 3, 2011
- Messages
- 6,095
Alright. Tis the season of Festivus, so I’ll air my guide grievances, and why I am the way I am about guides. I’ve used a guide exactly 3 times. I’m not going into any specifics, as I don’t know want to blast anyone. In chronological order:
1. Shortly after college (almost 20 years ago now), my college buddies and I got together for a long 4th of July weekend. We booked a half day (morning) striper trip. On the way out we stopped near some old dock plyings and everyone dropped some light downriggers with squid strips on them. Within about 10 minutes we had a couple dozen Scup to use as live bait. We were catching them so quickly the Captain asked if we didn’t mind spending another 10 minutes catching enough for their afternoon trip too, since it was a little out of the way to stop there. We of course said sure, no problem. We then went to a honey hole they knew about, and within the first hour all 6 guys on the trip put a keeper in the boat, and we caught a few small sharks too. Good fun. It was a big hit every cast, though you didn’t always hook up. I don’t recall, but I think you were allowed to keep two legal sized striper per person at the time. As soon as the 6th guy boated his legal striper, again, within about an hour of fishing, the Captain said, ok, let’s see if we can get some trolling. For the next two hours we rode around just above idle speed with two smallish teaser rigs off the back. Never got another bite. About 10:30 or so, the Captain says ok, time to head back. Glad we got into them. At the time none of us understood why we just didn’t keep fishing the live Scup we were getting good action on. Then it dawned on us…They didn’t want to have to go back and catch any more for the afternoon trip. So we basically got a 2 hour (slow) boat ride for the second half of the trip. The mates were good and filleted everything up for us on the ride back in. So we still tipped them well. Lesson learned, if you’re doing a charter trip, pop for the full day.
2. This was a genuinely good experience. My wife, FIL, and I booked a guide for a King float trip in Alaska. We didn’t catch a ton of fish, but my wife did get one really big King, biggest one the guide had taken on his boat all season. It was good day. Good, knowledgeable guide, and kept us entertained even when the fishing was slow.
3. Let me preface this by saying I accept partial responsibility for this going south. My wife and I had a trip to Colorado to visit her family planned. There was a family reunion and some other family events such that our schedule was pretty well planned out in advance, with not a lot of open time built in. There were two open days, and one we had plans to go with our nephews to a water park, which left one free day. Knowing that, and not being too comfortable with the area, I thought a guide may be a good idea in this circumstance, just to put us on at least decent water, and so that we didn’t spend the limited time we had hopscotching around on a bunch of duds. Had I been out there for a whole week just to fish, I would have done all the research myself, but I wasn’t even sure if we’d get a day to fish.
So anyway, I did some rudimentary research on guide services and called the one I thought looked best. I explained what we wanted to do…Small stream/hiking/away from crowds. I said I didn’t care how big the fish were, I just didn’t want to see any other people. I said I’d prefer cutthroats, if possible since I can’t catch them out East, but if there were better options with Brookies/Browns/Bows, that was fine too. Small stream solitude was my priority. The guy at the outfitter said we have the perfect guy for you, in fact he’s out on a private access small stream right now with a client. He checked his availability and booked me with him. I said great, and was excited.
So the week before I call and confirm all is ready to go. We show up the morning of, a little early, and walk into the outfitter and say who we are and we’re looking for so and so for our trip today. Young, fit looking kid behind the counter goes, That’s me, and I got some bad news. He takes a step back from the counter revealing an ankle/foot walker boot. He says, messed up my ankle pretty good the other day, and I can’t do the kind of trip you guys wanna do, I’m sorry. But I have another guy coming in on his day off, to go out with you. He’s running a little late, but is on his way. I asked if the plan was still for us to do the small stream thing like we planned. He said Sure, that’s what you guys booked to do.
Maybe 15 minutes later a heavy set fella, looking like he didn’t get much sleep last night, walks in and over to the guide counter and introduces himself to us. I probably should have just cut bait right there as upon looking at him, he didn’t seem like the kind of guy who spends much time hiking miles up small streams, but ok, whatever.
We get in his truck and he proceeds to start driving down along the main popular tailwater in the area, where there is at least one vehicle in each pulloff already. After about 45 mins of windshield time, we find a spot that seemingly doesn’t have anyone in it. I say ok, so which trib are we going up? He says I thought we’d fish the main river a little some this morning and go from there. My wife gave me the “go with the flow Matt” look. So we gear up and head down to the river. We fish a couple nice runs with a middle of the road dry/dropper combo without even a sniff. We come around a 90 degree bend and find two other anglers working the next run, and who likely just finished working the ones we just fished. So back in the car and another 45 mins goes by until we find another open spot. By now it’s about 11:00. The guide recommends we fish here for about an hour, and then go get lunch and regroup. So we pound one hole for an hour, catching nothing. When I said, hey I’m gonna poke up around the next bend aways, he says no we should stick together, and stick to this hole, as it generally produces…By this point I was getting short and frustrated with him. Had a conversation with my wife who suggested let’s go eat lunch, and talk with him over lunch about changing things up for the afternoon. I said ok.
We go back to his truck, where I assume we will be eating lunch, as when I booked the trip I was told to not pack a lunch, as they provide one. He says he didn’t pack one, so we have to run 45 mins back into town to buy some gas station pre-made from the case sandwiches. He pays for his only, and lets me pay for ours. (Fine, I don’t care.) After we eat it’s going on 1:30. We explain what we wanted to do and he says ok, but you’re talking like another hour’s drive to do that at this point, you sure you just don’t want to stick to the tailwater here in town. At this point I figured it out. We were doing what he wanted to do all day. He was lazy (and likely hungover) and didn’t want to be there, nonetheless hiking miles back into the mountains like we wanted to. I thanked him for his time and just asked him to take us back to our hotel. I wasn’t going to tip him, but my wife insisted I do, so I gave him $100, which I think most guides would still interpret as a middle finger, so well enough. We ended up having a nice afternoon in town, and went out to a nice dinner.
Sorry for the long post, but wanted to give context. There are a lot of good guides out there. My brother has had nothing but great experiences…Going out for dinner/beers after. One time the guy didn’t have a trip booked the next day and was just gonna go fish on his own. Invited my brother to go along, free. (My brother did cover their dinner/bar tab after as a thank you. Still, pretty cool.)
Anyway, I’m not a good fit for guides probably, nor are they for me. Lessons learned, and applied moving forward. I’ve learned I’d rather strike out on my own, than do what a guide tells me to do all day.
1. Shortly after college (almost 20 years ago now), my college buddies and I got together for a long 4th of July weekend. We booked a half day (morning) striper trip. On the way out we stopped near some old dock plyings and everyone dropped some light downriggers with squid strips on them. Within about 10 minutes we had a couple dozen Scup to use as live bait. We were catching them so quickly the Captain asked if we didn’t mind spending another 10 minutes catching enough for their afternoon trip too, since it was a little out of the way to stop there. We of course said sure, no problem. We then went to a honey hole they knew about, and within the first hour all 6 guys on the trip put a keeper in the boat, and we caught a few small sharks too. Good fun. It was a big hit every cast, though you didn’t always hook up. I don’t recall, but I think you were allowed to keep two legal sized striper per person at the time. As soon as the 6th guy boated his legal striper, again, within about an hour of fishing, the Captain said, ok, let’s see if we can get some trolling. For the next two hours we rode around just above idle speed with two smallish teaser rigs off the back. Never got another bite. About 10:30 or so, the Captain says ok, time to head back. Glad we got into them. At the time none of us understood why we just didn’t keep fishing the live Scup we were getting good action on. Then it dawned on us…They didn’t want to have to go back and catch any more for the afternoon trip. So we basically got a 2 hour (slow) boat ride for the second half of the trip. The mates were good and filleted everything up for us on the ride back in. So we still tipped them well. Lesson learned, if you’re doing a charter trip, pop for the full day.
2. This was a genuinely good experience. My wife, FIL, and I booked a guide for a King float trip in Alaska. We didn’t catch a ton of fish, but my wife did get one really big King, biggest one the guide had taken on his boat all season. It was good day. Good, knowledgeable guide, and kept us entertained even when the fishing was slow.
3. Let me preface this by saying I accept partial responsibility for this going south. My wife and I had a trip to Colorado to visit her family planned. There was a family reunion and some other family events such that our schedule was pretty well planned out in advance, with not a lot of open time built in. There were two open days, and one we had plans to go with our nephews to a water park, which left one free day. Knowing that, and not being too comfortable with the area, I thought a guide may be a good idea in this circumstance, just to put us on at least decent water, and so that we didn’t spend the limited time we had hopscotching around on a bunch of duds. Had I been out there for a whole week just to fish, I would have done all the research myself, but I wasn’t even sure if we’d get a day to fish.
So anyway, I did some rudimentary research on guide services and called the one I thought looked best. I explained what we wanted to do…Small stream/hiking/away from crowds. I said I didn’t care how big the fish were, I just didn’t want to see any other people. I said I’d prefer cutthroats, if possible since I can’t catch them out East, but if there were better options with Brookies/Browns/Bows, that was fine too. Small stream solitude was my priority. The guy at the outfitter said we have the perfect guy for you, in fact he’s out on a private access small stream right now with a client. He checked his availability and booked me with him. I said great, and was excited.
So the week before I call and confirm all is ready to go. We show up the morning of, a little early, and walk into the outfitter and say who we are and we’re looking for so and so for our trip today. Young, fit looking kid behind the counter goes, That’s me, and I got some bad news. He takes a step back from the counter revealing an ankle/foot walker boot. He says, messed up my ankle pretty good the other day, and I can’t do the kind of trip you guys wanna do, I’m sorry. But I have another guy coming in on his day off, to go out with you. He’s running a little late, but is on his way. I asked if the plan was still for us to do the small stream thing like we planned. He said Sure, that’s what you guys booked to do.
Maybe 15 minutes later a heavy set fella, looking like he didn’t get much sleep last night, walks in and over to the guide counter and introduces himself to us. I probably should have just cut bait right there as upon looking at him, he didn’t seem like the kind of guy who spends much time hiking miles up small streams, but ok, whatever.
We get in his truck and he proceeds to start driving down along the main popular tailwater in the area, where there is at least one vehicle in each pulloff already. After about 45 mins of windshield time, we find a spot that seemingly doesn’t have anyone in it. I say ok, so which trib are we going up? He says I thought we’d fish the main river a little some this morning and go from there. My wife gave me the “go with the flow Matt” look. So we gear up and head down to the river. We fish a couple nice runs with a middle of the road dry/dropper combo without even a sniff. We come around a 90 degree bend and find two other anglers working the next run, and who likely just finished working the ones we just fished. So back in the car and another 45 mins goes by until we find another open spot. By now it’s about 11:00. The guide recommends we fish here for about an hour, and then go get lunch and regroup. So we pound one hole for an hour, catching nothing. When I said, hey I’m gonna poke up around the next bend aways, he says no we should stick together, and stick to this hole, as it generally produces…By this point I was getting short and frustrated with him. Had a conversation with my wife who suggested let’s go eat lunch, and talk with him over lunch about changing things up for the afternoon. I said ok.
We go back to his truck, where I assume we will be eating lunch, as when I booked the trip I was told to not pack a lunch, as they provide one. He says he didn’t pack one, so we have to run 45 mins back into town to buy some gas station pre-made from the case sandwiches. He pays for his only, and lets me pay for ours. (Fine, I don’t care.) After we eat it’s going on 1:30. We explain what we wanted to do and he says ok, but you’re talking like another hour’s drive to do that at this point, you sure you just don’t want to stick to the tailwater here in town. At this point I figured it out. We were doing what he wanted to do all day. He was lazy (and likely hungover) and didn’t want to be there, nonetheless hiking miles back into the mountains like we wanted to. I thanked him for his time and just asked him to take us back to our hotel. I wasn’t going to tip him, but my wife insisted I do, so I gave him $100, which I think most guides would still interpret as a middle finger, so well enough. We ended up having a nice afternoon in town, and went out to a nice dinner.
Sorry for the long post, but wanted to give context. There are a lot of good guides out there. My brother has had nothing but great experiences…Going out for dinner/beers after. One time the guy didn’t have a trip booked the next day and was just gonna go fish on his own. Invited my brother to go along, free. (My brother did cover their dinner/bar tab after as a thank you. Still, pretty cool.)
Anyway, I’m not a good fit for guides probably, nor are they for me. Lessons learned, and applied moving forward. I’ve learned I’d rather strike out on my own, than do what a guide tells me to do all day.
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Ed Zern was one of the greats. Back in the late40's when he was writing ads for Nash automobiles, he designed an ad campaign for them targeted at outdoor people that said we should buy a Nash because you could put a newly harvested moose in the trunk.
Zern also told the story of how the annual migration of the arctic turn was disrupted when the city of Seattle took the evidence from a multi ton marijuana bust and disposed of it by incineration at the same time that the terns were passing through. And of course, as a result, not a single tern was left unstoned..
mt_flyfisher
Well-known member
Re. Post #80 -- I started fly-fishing about the same time and have the same recollection. I can't recall when I first saw someone being guided, though it was probably on Spring Creek or possibly the LJR. I just don't remember there being any guides around in those days.
hooker-of-men
Well-known member
I don't know what this thread is about anymore, but I love it. More stories about how guides and clients are both terrible!
Also, as someone who... um... knows fat and hungover people, I'd just like to say that some of u.. I mean, them can still put a couple miles in along a little mountain stream.
Also, as someone who... um... knows fat and hungover people, I'd just like to say that some of u.. I mean, them can still put a couple miles in along a little mountain stream.
Kms
Active member
Seems like a justifiable drowning situation.
Swattie87
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 3, 2011
- Messages
- 6,095
I’m sure many can and do. This guy wanted nothing to do with working that day. Partially not his fault admittedly with the other guy getting hurt, and it being his day off. Which I can understand. I wouldn’t want to adjust more insurance claims on my day off. But, this sort of illustrates that being a guide is still a job. There’s gonna be times where you don’t feel like working today. Happens to everyone who works for a living.
What probably should have happened was that the outfitter should have called me when our scheduled guide got hurt, and discussed other options, including a cancel/refund of our trip, as I got the impression the injured guide was their lone small stream specialist.
As I mentioned, there are many good guides out there. But it’s not a gamble I plan to take anymore. It was good it happened in the long run, as it has since motivated me to do my own research when planning a trip, which I tend to enjoy anyway.
hooker-of-men
Well-known member
Absolutely get it. Was just joking. Had to speak up for my people!
dudemanspecial
Well-known member
I read that as stripper and got real interested, then it turned into a fishing story.
caddisflyer
Well-known member
I cannot recall exact year but about 15 years ago I started running into guides on Penns Creek. They were associated with the fly shop in Coburn. Then with increasing frequency I kept running into them on Penns. I saw a guy on Spring a few times around that same time. I have seen guides on Tulpehocken for at least ten years.
Here are two examples of guides:
A few years back I ran into a guide on Tulpehocken as he was getting his boots on in the parking lot. I was chatting with him and his client before I even knew he was a guide. I could tell he was getting irritated that I was talking to his client so I stopped. Later I fished down below them and just watched them. They didn't catch a fish that I saw. Meanwhile I was getting one after another. Normally I would have shared info but not with that guy.
One evening I was fishing a New York stream and Coffin Flies started falling. I went through my box and had nothing close. With big fish all around I was getting frustrated. Around the bend comes a raft. The guide saw what was happening and gave me a coffin fly . I thanked him and he floated on by. I caught me biggest to date wild Brown on a dry that evening.
Yo Caddisflyer,
Your two stories provide something important. Guides are people. There are nice people and there are not nice people. There are nice guides who are congenial, and there are not-nice guides who are not congenial. A guide should be congenial because that is their business: treating people right. They are in the service industry.
I have started seeing guides on a stream that I won't even mention here, and I don't much like it at all.
dudemanspecial
Well-known member
I see them on the Little J almost anytime I go during the peak season.
