Guide tips

[wbranch]

For the first time in time in thirty-three years I elected to book a one day guided trip on a western tail water. I have this desire to stare at an indicator for about four hours and try to put as many fish into the net as possible. Then for the next 4-5 hours hunt for heads.

Is there some formula based on the initial cost of the trip plus the success of the guide to provide an overall good experience that helps figure out the tip for the guide. The guide I hired is an independent working only for himself if that enters into the equation.

Thanks in advance for any comments.

 

[redietz]

The general rule is tip the same as you would tip for dinner.

 

[wbranch]

Okay thanks.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear wbranch,

Like redietz said tips are tips. Assuming the trip costs $ 300.00 then $ 45.00 or $50.00 would be plenty unless you had an exceptional day. Out West tips are not really expected as part of the compensation.

To put things in perspective, many years ago I waded across the Green River in Utah nailing trout the whole way. I looked up and saw that the river was about a foot deeper than when I crossed it. I tried to cross but a couple of steps showed that it wouldn't happen without a good soaking and swim in neoprene waders.

So I literally started hand climbing a rock canyon wall to work my down to where someone might see me? Not long after that, a guide came by in a drift boat with his clients. He paddled close and said, "Are you OK?" I said "I'm fine but I want to be on the other side of the river." He said, "Hang tight!"

He rowed his clients in the boat across to the take out. And rowed back to get me.

So I climbed in, and when we got to the take out, I got out, pulled my waders down to get to my wallet, and handed him $ 40.00. He pushed my hand down and looked at me like I was crazy, and said, "What do you take me for? I'd never leave someone hanging." I said, "You saved me a bad night." He said, "You're welcome, and the offer meant more than you will know."

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[Baron]

Green, I'll probably be right there at the bottom of A section some day this summer, just like last summer. I wet waded as the water was warm enough.

 

[poopdeck]

Nobody in any industry gets a tip from me just because they work in a tip fetching field. My tip starts at 0 and based on the level of service can rise to a max of 25%.

I also don't tip on tax or any other fee imposed.

 

[wbranch]

In fifty years I have never based my tip on the total bill. Only on whatever service or goods that were provided prior to the addition of taxes.

 

[sgrim]

15% is a fair and reasonable start and unless my guide absolutely disregarded my wishes or pushed me in the river, I'd probably give him
20%. Especially if I thought I'd want to fish with him again.

 

[Canoetripper]

I was once a roommate with a guide so I know how hard they work. He guided on the Delaware River mostly for shad and striped bass, but also anything else between Trenton, NJ-New Hope, PA.

He also trolled for salmon/trout on Lake Ontario. I never went on one of those trips. I was the guy that did all of the exploratory and experimental trips on the Delaware so catching wasn't the goal. It was about the guide learning something new.

My father and I once fished with a guide on Lake Fork in Texas. He earned his tip. It was our first time ever fishing with bait casting tackle and we were constantly "bird nesting" his reels. I am sure that he was frustrated with us but he never showed it.

I also fished with a "guide" in Alaska twice. I really think that he fried his brain way back in the 1960's. He was primarily a moose and bear hunter, and spin fisherman for salmon.

He was very honest about not knowing anything about fly fishing, but he did have a jet boat.

The guides that my father and I fished with on the Frying Pan River in Colorado were great.

I tip guides very well because I know how hard they work. The next time I hire one for trout fishing, I really want them to make me a better fly caster. I know that that is my weakest link in my quest to be a better fly fisherman.

The last time I went on a guided trip was with TCO on Spring Creek to learn euro nymph fishing. I caught two and lost six. I learned a lot.

 

[mt_flyfisher]

Matt -

Here are several extracts on guiding and tipping that I copied from another fly fishing forum that I participate on. These were written several years ago by a HIGHLY experienced and respected former guide (retired now) and outdoor writer. I believe they are still pertinent today.

“Tipping a fly fishing guide has been controversial from the get go. There's just so many factors. Here's a few.

-- Is the guide working hard and going the extra mile to make the day the best ever for you? Tip him well. Well being 15% -– 20%. If he's hung over, a slug, ornery, or just plain bad, don't give him any tip.

-- Does the guide work for a shop or Outfitter? If yes, the amount he gets from the trip is likely half of what you pay. Also, he may have to pay for your lunch, the flies you break off, and the shuttle. He may also be paying for insurance, fuel and added wear and tear on his vehicle, and many other factors.”

“There are some large differences between guides and the trades.

In Montana, unless you are an Outfitter, you don't set prices. In Montana, an Independent Contractor guide, cannot, by law, advertise his services unless it's in conjunction with a State licensed Outfitter. He cannot, by law, guide anyone except through an Outfitter.

He is, essentially, an employee who has no employee benefits. He pays his own workman's comp etc. No plumber has those sorts of restrictions.

I know of no plumber who is going to instruct his clients how to do the work he's doing without him.

I don't know how tipping started with guides any more than I know how it started with barbers. I agree that wait staff work hard and put up with bullshit I'd never tolerate, but a waitress isn't tasked with transporting the customers in various vehicles in a variable environment. She doesn't have to know CPR or how to extract a wooly bugger from a clients neck. She doesn't instruct people.

A plumber isn't responsible for the well being of his customer. A plumber's #1 job isn't the customer's safety. A guides #1 job isn't to rack up numbers. If his client drowns, the clients spouse isn't going to be comforted by "Yeah he's dead but he caught these really nice rainbows!"

“Guides in Montana are sometimes employees, but mostly they work as sub-contractors to outfitters. They have to have an IC license, but they are not allowed to solicit clients independent of the outfitter. The outfitter sets the price of trip, not the IC guide. The guide can only negotiate his daily rate to the outfitter, but all outfitters I worked for paid the same rate to every guide regardless of experience.

For the most part, this was how the money part worked out:

Example: Cost of trip for 2 anglers — $500
Guides pay for the trip $250

Other costs.
— lunches - outfitter, but often I would make the lunches and the outfitter would reimburse me for them.

— shuttles - outfitter

— flies, tippet, snacks, drinks, extra rods, reels, etc - guide

— driftboat and/or raft - guide

— fuel, vehicle expenses, maintenance - guide

— guide license, $2 million liability insurance, commercial vehicle insurance, IC license, CPR and First Aid recertification — guide

Most years I would guide ~ 125 days.

Most days began ~ 0400 tying flies. On average I estimate I'd go through 2—3 dozen/day. I'd then deal with lunches and meet my clients around 0800.

For Blackfoot trips that meant a 2 hour drive. For the MO it was closer to an hour.

I'd typically got off the river around 7 PM, then dropped off the anglers and drove home.

I'd wash my boat, eat and hit the rack, typically around 10-11pm.

I loved guiding but it doesn't take a CPA to figure out you don't get rich doing it.

Should the angler have to supplement the guides income with tips? No, but I'm showing you what my reality as a guide looked like.

I'm showing the $500 paid to the outfitter isn't $500 in the pocket of the guide. Not even close.”

John

 

[Lkyboots]

I'm not a good person to answer because I'm a big tipper. I had a electritan do some work this week and gave him a tip. Do the same with Plumbers and other workers when they do good work if I had a great day with a guide he would receive a nice tip. I appreciate workers who do a nice job.

 

[shakey]

poopdeck wrote:
Nobody in any industry gets a tip from me just because they work in a tip fetching field. My tip starts at 0 and based on the level of service can rise to a max of 25%.

I also don't tip on tax or any other fee imposed.

This is one of the most disappointing comments I have ever read.
Please do not go to any restaurants.

People who work for tips, literally work for tips. Their salary is not enough to live on.

Only a truly awful person would tip less than 20 %.

 

[PennKev]

TimMurphy wrote:
Dear wbranch,

Out West tips are not really expected as part of the compensation.

Tips ARE MOST DEFINITELY customary "out west"

Don't be that guy. Unless your guide is a real hack, tip them something. East, west, north, south, wherever.

P.s. I'm glad a guide saved you Tim, but him not taking your money is a totally different situation that if you had spent the day with him as a paying customer.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear PennKev,

Trust me, I have never once not tipped a guide, the mate on a charter, or the guy at the dock who fileted the fish. I have never been that guy.

But Colorado is the only place I've fished with a guide out West, and it is the only place where I've just about had to force a tip on the guide at the end of the day. Maybe I just had the best old time guide in the State, but he definitely did not expect a tip. Could be his last few sports were cheapskates, so he figured I would be too?

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[PennKev]

wbranch wrote:
For the first time in time in thirty-three years I elected to book a one day guided trip on a western tail water. I have this desire to stare at an indicator for about four hours and try to put as many fish into the net as possible. Then for the next 4-5 hours hunt for heads.

Is this a walk-and-wade trip or a float?

I would be inclined to be a little more generous for a float trip because 1) The guide probably spent $30 or so arranging a shuttle. 2) Managing a boat while aiding the angler takes a heck of a lot more skill and effort than just standing there. Once you have a couple guides who are excellent at positioning the boat you'll realize how bad others are at it.

With that said the %20 figure is a pretty safe base for a tip.

 

[PennKev]

TimMurphy wrote:
Maybe I just had the best old time guide in the State, but he definitely did not expect a tip.

I'm sure plenty of guides don't get their hopes up for a nice tip, but it's rare to find one that will refuse it.

 

[poopdeck]

shakey wrote:

poopdeck wrote:
Nobody in any industry gets a tip from me just because they work in a tip fetching field. My tip starts at 0 and based on the level of service can rise to a max of 25%.

I also don't tip on tax or any other fee imposed.

This is one of the most disappointing comments I have ever read.
Please do not go to any restaurants.

People who work for tips, literally work for tips. Their salary is not enough to live on.

Only a truly awful person would tip less than 20 %.

I once worked for tips as did my mother, two daughters and wife, so I know all about it. Problem is some people don't work for tips anymore, they automatically expect them because I showed up. When I worked for tips that's exactly what I did, I worked for tips. I made your experience memorable. I worked my *** off making sure all your needs were taken care of during your entire visit. I didn't do it for them, I did it to maximize my income. Now, I find it more common to go into a restaurant and have to fill my own drink glass while the wait staff automatically expects a big tip just because I'm eating there. I didn't say I don't tip but their earning potential is in their hands. I reward hard work and I am very generous when I find it.

As in any profession there are those who excel and those who coast by. Sorry I don't recognize participation trophies and I make no apologies for that. I feel an awful person is the one who expects something they haven't earned. Especially when it's so darn easy to earn.

 

[kbobb]

Folks - i mean this as a legitimate question and not trying to be a smart---. when a restaurant server waits 2 tables and brings one a $10 burger and the other a $50 steak it takes roughly the same effort on the servers part. So based on the percentage theory why should one tip be $2 and the other $10 just cause one person got a more expensive meal, for roughly similar server effort?

thinking along the same lines for a guide - if a 1 person float is $450 the guide tends to 1 sport. with 2 person float for the same price the guide has twice the work but based on percentage get the same $ in tip.

just wondering and i know you can always tip more/less based on your experience and guide effort.

thanks

 

[redietz]

kbobb wrote:
Folks - i mean this as a legitimate question and not trying to be a smart---. when a restaurant server waits 2 tables and brings one a $10 burger and the other a $50 steak it takes roughly the same effort on the servers part. So based on the percentage theory why should one tip be $2 and the other $10 just cause one person got a more expensive meal, for roughly similar server effort?

Because in a place where there are people ordering $10 burgers, it's much more likely that a $50 order would be five people ordering $10 burgers rather than one person ordering a single $50 meal. On average, the bill in any restaurant will be roughly proportional to the number of people being served (and the number extras like appetizers and dessert.)

As for one v. two person trips, shuttle and gas costs are fixed regardless of the number of sports, as is the cost to the boat owner of having the boat in use for a single client. The work of rowing, pulling the boat in and out of the river is the same for two clients as for one.

A guide would really have to tick me off to stiff him.

 

[tabasco_joe]

TimMurphy wrote:
Dear wbranch,

Like redietz said tips are tips. Assuming the trip costs $ 300.00 then $ 45.00 or $50.00 would be plenty unless you had an exceptional day. Out West tips are not really expected as part of the compensation.

To put things in perspective, many years ago I waded across the Green River in Utah nailing trout the whole way. I looked up and saw that the river was about a foot deeper than when I crossed it. I tried to cross but a couple of steps showed that it wouldn't happen without a good soaking and swim in neoprene waders.

So I literally started hand climbing a rock canyon wall to work my down to where someone might see me? Not long after that, a guide came by in a drift boat with his clients. He paddled close and said, "Are you OK?" I said "I'm fine but I want to be on the other side of the river." He said, "Hang tight!"

He rowed his clients in the boat across to the take out. And rowed back to get me.

So I climbed in, and when we got to the take out, I got out, pulled my waders down to get to my wallet, and handed him $ 40.00. He pushed my hand down and looked at me like I was crazy, and said, "What do you take me for? I'd never leave someone hanging." I said, "You saved me a bad night." He said, "You're welcome, and the offer meant more than you will know."

Regards,

Tim Murphy

Interesting.
I've hunted with guides out west a couple times and did one fishing/outing trip. They all expected tips. And everyone else on the trips tipped. These were in Montana.

The fishing one was a horseback trip into a camp. Several days of fishing. Then horseback out. So, not purely fishing.