FYI - wild trout ID

Actually I was talking to the Local biologist a couple of weeks ago and he said there was only one stream that he ever surveyed and found a reproducing wild golden rainbow in, it was Cold Run. I was there yesterday coincidently, and caught a wild rainbow there, I thought it was a bit strange having fished there many times and never even caught a stocked bow there.
 
All I know is that on the West Brnach of the Perkiomen, where I participated in a survey by PFBC, is that we found fish caught in the last survey that sill had not grown back their fins in 2 years.
 
I thought the article's description of wild vs hatchery browns was interesting. It gave this description of the hatchery browns:

Domestic stock: A large-headed, somewhat slender trout, usually dark brown on dorsal surfaces and silvery to pale brown with heavy black spotting on sides and dorsal fin, often with slightly paler spots on the upper half (and sometimes the lower half) of the tail. The spots are often of an irregular shape (and may even be connected toward the tail). As these fish "color-up" in streams, the sides become a bit more yellow and spots below the lateral line develop an orange or orange-brown color. As fall approaches, the fish darken (especially males) and the entire lower half of the body may be washed in deep orange-brown. These fish rarely develop any true red or crimson anywhere on the body and their fins are usually dark.


The stocked browns usually do have these irregular dark spots, as opposed to round spots, and on a light background, and they don't have much brilliant red color. So its a pretty good description of the strain stocked by the PFBC. But browns with this appearance are also found as wild, reproducing populations in some streams, particularly some of the larger limestone streams in central PA. In some of these streams you will find browns with the irregular spots all over the body, not the round spots, and on a light background, not that deep buttery yellow, and without red spots. But if you catch fish like that, you can't assume those fish came from the hatchery. Some streams have quite good wild populations of these browns.
 
Whether or not a fish's fins will grow back or not depends on how well the "clipper" completes his or her job.
If it is done correctly the fish's fins will grow back within a matter of 3 -4 months.
If it is a botched job, the scarring will be too severe that they will never grow back. I have caught fish where the clipped fins are infected and swell up like leechs.
Fish have about the same regeneration power as humans.
 
Finally someone agrees with me that the fins can grow back. I'm sure its not true in all cases though but they can grow back. I was looking through some of my pictures of the brown trout I've caught and most of mine do have that blue spot or a faint blue spot behind the eye. Even the real pale ones I've caughten out of Spring Creek seem to have it but I also noticed in a few of the pictures that I know are stocked browns seem to have a dark spot but its black and the ones that I know are wild fish it seems to be more blue or blackish blue.

If a golden rainbow reproduces their young would just be rainbows right since thats really what they would have been without the fish commission playing the mad evil scientist or would their eggs be steral and not hatch like a hybred? I know Fishing Creek can have wild rainbows especially on the stretch from Cedar Run to the 220 bridge.
 
First of all, the fins are the way you can tell if a fish is wild or stocked. The fins will still be noticibly messed up if you know what to look for. Stockies will color up to they go into a breeding mode as well even if they were born in a hatchry. And finally paliminos can not reproduce they are steril and stocking them should be forbiddin. No serious fisherman should even enjoy the look of such an abomination.
 
Just because a trout has perfect fins does not make it a wild trout especially if its a stream gets stocked and is class B or better. Fins will regrow, color up, etc I'm beginning to think that the blue spot is the way to tell although I have a picture of a wild trout that I can't see it on and I'm sure its a wild trout from where it was caught at but it could just be the way the picture was taken. The trout in the picture for my avitar has the blue spot and I knew it was a wild brown from where I had caught it. I also checked out some that I know were stocked browns and I noticed they still had a spot there on some of them but it was completely black and seemed to lack any blue tint. PERFECT COLORED UP FINS DO NOT PROVE ITS A WILD TROUT BY ANY MEANS ACTUALLY COLOR OVER ALL DOES NOT PROVE ITS A WILD TROUT EITHER. YES MOST WILD TROUT ARE COLORED UP BUT A STOCKIE CAN LOOK THE SAME I'M TELLING YA. I'm going to convince you guys sooner or later lol this is my goal for next season...gives me something to look for now when I'm fishing although I don't fish stocked streams as much anymore.
 
They are probably decendents of trout from past stockings that were in the stream long enough to spawn and reprodcue to a certain degrees, I knw in my home watershed I see 2 distinct strains 1 very colorful and 1 that is very silvery, the stream hasn't been stocked since the 70's so they are not stocked fish that reprodcued recently. But with the heavy stocking of the past a few fish may have reproduced and been successful at it, which is not very common at all. I still think that fish that guys call holdovers aren't really holdovers at all but a few wild fish that inhabitat our some marginal streams.
 
No one said anything about Palaminos, we're talking about golden rainbows, there is a difference, Golden rainbows are a color variant of the rainbow trout, Palaminos are a hybrid between golden trout and rainbow trout, and because they are found in the wild in some streams in California they do reproduce in mixed populations, however, they seldom use the same water to spawn so it is not likely that they will inter spawn. As for Golden Rainbows, which is what PFBC currently stocks, they don't last long in a stream environment, they can spawn but seldom do, that's why you don't find them in the wild.
One last thing when trying to identify wild vs. stocked, some of the clubs stock fish in streams that because of the rearing facilities environment the fish look like wild fish but with duller colors. This is probably a function of spawning stock used and diet in the hatchery enivronment.
 
Re:

“Whether or not a fish's fins will grow back or not depends on how well the "clipper" completes his or her job.
If it is done correctly the fish's fins will grow back within a matter of 3 -4 months.”

and

“Finally someone agrees with me that the fins can grow back. I'm sure its not true in all cases though but they can grow back.”


I don't know whether they grow back or not, and have an open mind on the question. Maybe I missed this in another thread, but why do you think the fins grow back? Have you read this somewhere, or do you have some observations or experience supports this idea?
 
MKern wrote:
Whether or not a fish's fins will grow back or not depends on how well the "clipper" completes his or her job.
If it is done correctly the fish's fins will grow back within a matter of 3 -4 months.
False. The purpose of fin clipping is to permanently "mark" a fish ofr identification during future surveys. If the clipped fin grew back this method of identification would not be used.

If it is a botched job, the scarring will be too severe that they will never grow back. I have caught fish where the clipped fins are infected and swell up like leechs.


Fish have about the same regeneration power as humans.
True. Cut off a limb and it don't grow back. Cut off the tip and you are left with a stub. Think of a fin like a sail on a sail boat. If the bony part (mast) is clipped it will not regenerate. but if the soft tissue (sail) is clipped it may grow back over time or seem to as the size gets larger and the scarring grows out like a fingernail. But Bones and cardelige do not grow back...just like in humans.

Maurice
 
How come in the beginning of the season in the stocked portion of Fishing Creek you will catch about every other trout with messed up fins but if you go this time of year you probably won't catch any? Actually as the season goes on you catch less and less fish with messed up fins. Where do the ones with the clipped fins go and don't tell me they go in peoples frying pans either because a very large portion of the stocked fish make it year to year on Fishing Creek.
 
a very large portion of the stocked fish make it year to year on Fishing Creek.

That would be very unusual. From what I have heard even in a C&R stream, stocked trout have a very poor survival rate.
 
Because the stocked trout don't survive and all that's left are wild fish. They starve to death because they never really learn what food is. There are many studies done on this very subject, one of the first such study done on this was Dr Bachman's study on Spruce Creek.
 
John,

I assume you mean the Fishing Creek at Lamar.

Simply put John, stocked trout have very poor survival skills. They die either by predation, harvest or starvation. The ones with the crippled fins are more likely to die than the healthy ones.

Once they stop being fed they have to feed for themselves. It is quite a culture shock. Stocked trout are stocked to be harvested, they are not reared to survive like wild trout. The ones that are (fingerling stockings), are stocked at an age more likely to pick up on the feeding opportunities of the watershed. Even these are predicted to have minimul survival rates based on the numbers stocked.

Survival of the fittest sums it up.

Maurice
 
Nope I'm talking about the Mill Hall section and the stocked trout do realize what food is trust me I've kept enough in the past (I no longer keep many) and I always check the stomach content and trust me the fish know how to eat. I even found a 4 inch long crayfish in the last one I kept along with about 6 or 7 grannom larva. They know what food is...they survive...just go down to the hole at Benji's in the middle of winter on a warmer day and watch the trout raise...they are almost all stockies. For some reason the fish in that hole do not color up and keep a lot of the stockie characteristics but you won't catch any with poor fins. I know Fishing Creek from Clintondale down to Mill Hall like the back of my hand, hardly a stone unturned...the stocked trout all survive that are not kept by people or other predators. If you want to make a bet I'll take ya fishing and just show ya. This might not be true on every stream but on Fishing Creek it is 100% true.
 
I’m with bigjohn on this one. A little googling shows that a clipped adipose fin will grow back unless its completely removed. Its irrelevant though, because the fish commission doesn’t clip fins on all the stocked trout - too many of them. However, when they survey a stream they usually make two passes and clip fins to distinguished fish caught in the first pass. Seldom do they attempt to distinguish a wild fish from a stocked one when they are both present, so there are undoubtedly wild fish with a clipped fin out there. And as far as a stocked fish’s ability to survive, rainbows don’t do so well but brown trout thrive and have literally taken over many streams.
 
bigjohn58 wrote:
Nope I'm talking about the Mill Hall section and the stocked trout do realize what food is trust me I've kept enough in the past (I no longer keep many) and I always check the stomach content and trust me the fish know how to eat. I even found a 4 inch long crayfish in the last one I kept along with about 6 or 7 grannom larva. They know what food is...they survive...just go down to the hole at Benji's in the middle of winter on a warmer day and watch the trout raise...they are almost all stockies. For some reason the fish in that hole do not color up and keep a lot of the stockie characteristics but you won't catch any with poor fins. I know Fishing Creek from Clintondale down to Mill Hall like the back of my hand, hardly a stone unturned...the stocked trout all survive that are not kept by people or other predators. If you want to make a bet I'll take ya fishing and just show ya. This might not be true on every stream but on Fishing Creek it is 100% true.

Look John, I ain't saying they can't survive, or don't survive. I am saying that by and large they are not very good at it. Think about the number of fish they stock in that section of crik over the course of a year and how many are there "in the winter" There may be many in the holes and sure they learn how to eat. The stocked browns on our home stream can be some of the pickiest feeders you can fish over. What I am saying is that there are many factors that thin out stocked trout populations. Harvest, predation, over-summer mortality (thermal) Over-winter mortality etc. And that the strongest, healthiest fish survive.

Otherwise...why would the F&BC have to come back each year to restock the streams?
 
Gone4Day wrote:
I’m with bigjohn on this one. A little googling shows that a clipped adipose fin will grow back unless its completely removed. Its irrelevant though, because the fish commission doesn’t clip fins on all the stocked trout - too many of them. However, when they survey a stream they usually make two passes and clip fins to distinguished fish caught in the first pass. Seldom do they attempt to distinguish a wild fish from a stocked one when they are both present, so there are undoubtedly wild fish with a clipped fin out there. And as far as a stocked fish’s ability to survive, rainbows don’t do so well but brown trout thrive and have literally taken over many streams.

No the fish commission doesn't clip fins on all stocked trout. You are right. and they do clip fins on a first pass of a survey to distinguish fish on a second pass. Here they clip "fleshy" fins for regenerative purposes. And they DO distinguish wild from stocked trout when recording results.

They also will clip fingerling trout stockings in wild trout water to estimate the survival rate of the "experiment". For future surveys. Here they clip Adapose fins so it stays distinguisable for over a year.

But I believe the original issue with the fins were the crippled fins of hatchery trout regenerating to be normal. And the Opacity of the fins "clearing" to a translusence of wild trout. I believe this only occurs on the remote island in the carribean....Saint Happenin'
:-D
Maurice
 
I'm familiar with that section of Fishing Creek. It has quite a high wild trout population. In the late season you'll pick up a stockie here and there but the great majority of the fish are wild browns.

Ask someone from the PFBC sometime. They'll tell you there are loads of wild browns right down into Mill Hall. Or even better, go along with them when they electrofish. Ask them to tell which fish are wild and which are stocked. They can tell the difference. Even when they survey in July, most of the stockies are gone. The great majority of the fish remaining are wild browns. The same is true of other places where they are still stocking good wild trout streams. Kish Creek for example. If you fish there in early season you'll catch lots of stockies. But if you fish later in the year, the great majority of your catch will be wild browns.

About fin clipped fish on streams like Fishing Creek. Most of the fin-clipped fish you see are wild trout, not stocked trout. For the simple reason that when they electrofish in mid-summer, most of the fish they are handling are wild fish. The stockie fish have mostly gone bye-byes.
 
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