Fracking- what's your overall assessment?
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FarmerDave
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Yea, I went to far with the "great pressure" thing. I meant significant pressure from the surrounding material that it isn't going anywhere and isn't going to crumble either. The point was, the concrete "half life" is a non-issue.
We are off topic now anyway.
pcray1231
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Generally good. Though it should be pointed out that "fracking" is not at all what's new here. We were fracking in PA back in the 60's.
What's new with Marcellus is horizontal drilling. Compared to the shallow gas fields that have been drilled for decades, with Marcellus the impact per well is much higher. Vastly higher quantities of fluid and associated disposal issues, higher pressures, a lot more and larger equipment, much larger well pads, longer time periods for each phase of the process, etc.
Half life of the concrete is meaningless. It only really has to hold through the fracking operation itself. During the production phase the pressures are far lower.
Impacts can be split into 2 levels:
Chronic: This is the building of new roads, equipment and traffic on local streets, clearing of forest for well pads, disposal of waste, noise, etc. It's development plain and simple. And in our most rural areas. It's never pretty. And yes, this impact happens, is always going to with any industrial development, and it has been felt.
Screw ups: Whether accidental, or intentional but improper, this is the stuff that's not supposed to happen, but occasionally does. There has been a case or two of failed casings (Dimock), blown pressure caps (Clearfield), a few retaining pond leaks, etc. Not to mention some reports of some dirty operators improperly disposing of cuttings and fluids. These have generally been rare, but when they happen, the impacts can range from severe and largely permanent to minor and temporary.
In the end, my assessment is that it's better than coal. Even modern coal. And since it's displacing coal, I'm for it. That doesn't mean I'm in favor of ignoring the issues.
I'd still prefer nuclear.
What's new with Marcellus is horizontal drilling. Compared to the shallow gas fields that have been drilled for decades, with Marcellus the impact per well is much higher. Vastly higher quantities of fluid and associated disposal issues, higher pressures, a lot more and larger equipment, much larger well pads, longer time periods for each phase of the process, etc.
Half life of the concrete is meaningless. It only really has to hold through the fracking operation itself. During the production phase the pressures are far lower.
Impacts can be split into 2 levels:
Chronic: This is the building of new roads, equipment and traffic on local streets, clearing of forest for well pads, disposal of waste, noise, etc. It's development plain and simple. And in our most rural areas. It's never pretty. And yes, this impact happens, is always going to with any industrial development, and it has been felt.
Screw ups: Whether accidental, or intentional but improper, this is the stuff that's not supposed to happen, but occasionally does. There has been a case or two of failed casings (Dimock), blown pressure caps (Clearfield), a few retaining pond leaks, etc. Not to mention some reports of some dirty operators improperly disposing of cuttings and fluids. These have generally been rare, but when they happen, the impacts can range from severe and largely permanent to minor and temporary.
In the end, my assessment is that it's better than coal. Even modern coal. And since it's displacing coal, I'm for it. That doesn't mean I'm in favor of ignoring the issues.
I'd still prefer nuclear.
Chaz
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A friend who is a chemist, once told me that. If you look around at any concrete that is around about 100 years, it is severely deteriorated. Even stuff from 50 years ago has been replaced with new concrete or resurfaced with some other material. There are wells in ANF that have leakage through and around the casings, most of which are concrete. No one knows what is happening 12,000 feet under the ground, and can't pretend to know.
My biggest concern is the water underground and how it impacts creeks and rivers.
pcray1231
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There's no concrete deeper than a few hundred feet.
FarmerDave
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Chaz, No offense, but concrete laying around is not the same as concrete used as a sealant a couple hundred feet underground. I do not disagree with you chemist friend, just you.;-)
The likely reason those wells in the ANF are leaking is they were simply abandoned without plugging properly and I'd speculate that many of those are old enough that they likely did not used concrete. Nobody cared back in the day. When they do remediation on those abandoned wells, they don't pull out the old concrete, do they? Think about it.
Chaz
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I have advocated not getting the gas, I've only said we have to do it with great care, I just question whether concrete to surround the casing is the safest way to protect the water. Let's not forget that there is brine down there, salts if you will, Salts attack concrete. There's also pyritic rock down there and we've seen what happens when water comes into contact with pyritic rock.
FarmerDave
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Chaz, I will try to respectfully address your latest.
Viable alternatives please?
I suspect you meant you were not advocating not getting the gas. If that is the case, nevermind. I'd agree with that.
I 100% agree with that.
Valid alternatives please?
Yea, I've seen where water comes in contact with pyritic rock. Aint pretty unless you like orange and lifeless.I haven't forgotten.
But lets look at the brine water and concrete scenerio. Cement actually, which Gone4Day pointed out.
We are talking about drilling more than mile typically. The cement itself is used as a sealant around the casing for a couple hundred feet or so to seal off the hole just punched through impervious rock, thus keeping it impervious cept for the hole in the steel pipe. Usually multiple layers of impervious rock. Below that, it's just more rock around the pipe.
1. So, the question would be, what is the likelyhood that the brine water that may be trying to come up around the pipe, as opposed to through the pipe will come in conctat with said cement.
1.1. If so, what will happen to the concrete.
If you read up on the mechanisms that cause pitting in concrete from salt, you will realize nothing will happen. What causes it on your driveway? I'll tell you. Concrete is fairly porous. A small amount of water soaks into the surface when it gets wet. We can both see this.
Now, when the temperature drops below freezing, what happens? Normally nothing, right? the water is a sold and therefore cannot soak in.
Now add a piece of rock salt, what happens? The snow salt mixture melts into a saline solution (liquid) which can soak into the concrete surface, right?
OK, here is where it gets interesting. Salt is hygroscopic meaning it it draws moisture. It will draw more and more moisture into the concrete surface.
What happens to very cold salt water as the salinity level drops from dilution. It freezes, and in this case a small flake pops out.
It would be a cold day in hell before it gets cold enough to freeze moisture contained in cement, 200 feet under ground.
That is not the entire story, but is what most people refer to as salt "eating" concrete.
Salt solutions tend to be mildly acidic. Don't ask me why. I just read it once. Concrete is on the basic side and as we said, pourous. If you ever made a volcano using vinegar and baking soda, you will know where this is going, but at a snails pace at best. I honestly don't see this as being an issue even after hundreds of years if ever because it is totally surrounded by rock.
As I said in another... This well failures resulting in the orange punch (you referenced ANF) are not a result of concrete failure. They are a result of the casing failure allowing different layers to mix,
.. or a result of the casing being removed believe it or not (shallow well).
Any questions?
Ask you chemist friend if I am right or wrong and if he ways wrong, please be specific. Ask Gulfgreyhound. I think he taught HS chemistry for years. I don't mind learning on occasion.
I don't know the formula for this cement used in well applications, but I'd imagine all this is taken into consideration.
Viable alternatives please?
I suspect you meant you were not advocating not getting the gas. If that is the case, nevermind. I'd agree with that.
I 100% agree with that.
Valid alternatives please?
Yea, I've seen where water comes in contact with pyritic rock. Aint pretty unless you like orange and lifeless.I haven't forgotten.
But lets look at the brine water and concrete scenerio. Cement actually, which Gone4Day pointed out.
We are talking about drilling more than mile typically. The cement itself is used as a sealant around the casing for a couple hundred feet or so to seal off the hole just punched through impervious rock, thus keeping it impervious cept for the hole in the steel pipe. Usually multiple layers of impervious rock. Below that, it's just more rock around the pipe.
1. So, the question would be, what is the likelyhood that the brine water that may be trying to come up around the pipe, as opposed to through the pipe will come in conctat with said cement.
1.1. If so, what will happen to the concrete.
If you read up on the mechanisms that cause pitting in concrete from salt, you will realize nothing will happen. What causes it on your driveway? I'll tell you. Concrete is fairly porous. A small amount of water soaks into the surface when it gets wet. We can both see this.
Now, when the temperature drops below freezing, what happens? Normally nothing, right? the water is a sold and therefore cannot soak in.
Now add a piece of rock salt, what happens? The snow salt mixture melts into a saline solution (liquid) which can soak into the concrete surface, right?
OK, here is where it gets interesting. Salt is hygroscopic meaning it it draws moisture. It will draw more and more moisture into the concrete surface.
What happens to very cold salt water as the salinity level drops from dilution. It freezes, and in this case a small flake pops out.
It would be a cold day in hell before it gets cold enough to freeze moisture contained in cement, 200 feet under ground.
That is not the entire story, but is what most people refer to as salt "eating" concrete.
Salt solutions tend to be mildly acidic. Don't ask me why. I just read it once. Concrete is on the basic side and as we said, pourous. If you ever made a volcano using vinegar and baking soda, you will know where this is going, but at a snails pace at best. I honestly don't see this as being an issue even after hundreds of years if ever because it is totally surrounded by rock.
As I said in another... This well failures resulting in the orange punch (you referenced ANF) are not a result of concrete failure. They are a result of the casing failure allowing different layers to mix,
.. or a result of the casing being removed believe it or not (shallow well).
Any questions?
Ask you chemist friend if I am right or wrong and if he ways wrong, please be specific. Ask Gulfgreyhound. I think he taught HS chemistry for years. I don't mind learning on occasion.
I don't know the formula for this cement used in well applications, but I'd imagine all this is taken into consideration.
Chaz
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Dave you are right I meant I have not advocated not getting the gas, in fact I have gas all the time. They should hook me up once a day and I could supply my vehicle with gas.
Some of the stuff that is in the ground comes up as blow back during the process of fracking. Brine could, but as for brine I'm more curious about what it does to our streams. Whatever it is, it isn't good.
Some of the stuff that is in the ground comes up as blow back during the process of fracking. Brine could, but as for brine I'm more curious about what it does to our streams. Whatever it is, it isn't good.
FarmerDave
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Chaz, as long as the well is properly "cemented," I'm not worried about that part.
As far as everything else, I believe we are for the most part on the same page or at least same chapter.
Needs to be done as safe as possible.
As far as everything else, I believe we are for the most part on the same page or at least same chapter.
Needs to be done as safe as possible.
franklin
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I have two brothers that have had involvement with the cement used. One helped develop both cements and fracking fluids prior to returning for his graduate work. The other tested cements used as part of his graduate work. Neither has any concerns about the long term reliability of the material if installed properly.
(One of these brothers is well placed in engineering for "big oil". He's completely confident that his company is using very safe practices in their drilling efforts.)
(One of these brothers is well placed in engineering for "big oil". He's completely confident that his company is using very safe practices in their drilling efforts.)
jdaddy
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NG is cheap indefilate We all win!~
FarmerDave
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It was mentioned once before here. Was that you?
I've been meaning to look into this. Sounds interesting.
gulfgreyhound
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Sounds right to me ,Dave. Pipe failure is more likely than concrete, I think.GG
