Forest Co Stream today

[Prospector]

Recent rains had added quite a bit of water to the area streams. They were dropping but most were muddy. I found one that is an indirect trib to the Allegheny River that was the perfect color. I was hoping some jumbo trout had made a right turn into this trib seeking its 58 degree water. For about an hour and a half I ran a sz 6 woolly bugger in a number of very nice holes. Only had one strike but it was a very nice native.

On the way upstream I was focused on locating the best holding water. On the way back down, I took a little more time to check out the things I missed. I love the seashell sediment rocks that tend to be in all of the small tribs within a 15 mile radius as well as the creatures that roam the valley.

 

[JeffP]

Awesome pics! That stream looks super trouty!

 

[Kyle]

awesome. thanks for sharing with us

 

[nativebrownie]

Beautiful -
I believe that it was Charlie Fox who said that an absence of frogs denotes a failing ecosystem for trout....

 

[jifigz]

Beautiful -
I believe that it was Charlie Fox who said that an absence of frogs denotes a failing ecosystem for trout....

I can't think of a single high quality trout stream that I frequent that has an abundance of frogs.....I would actually think it would be the opposite. When the water starts to be lousy for trout I think frogs would find it more suitable.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I actually have seen a fair amount of leopard frogs and bull frogs on HQ brook trout streams.

Generally speaking it isn't the stream they are most interested in, though they will wander there, it is the wetlands around the watershed they most like.

Don't have those, it's likely a poorly filtered mountain stream, and not as healthy.

 

[jifigz]

That is an interesting observation. If I am strictly talking about mountain streams, I have never noticed the correlation between near stream wetlands/saturated environments and quality of a stream/fishing. I never evaluate a stream after one visit, either, but only upon repeat visits.

What makes a brook trout stream "HQ?" One of my favorite mountain streams has lots of boggy wetland type habitat, but all the rest streams running down the otherwise dry sides of mountains and ridges.

 

[Mike]

The relationship between freestone stream quality and the abundance of amphibians therein is a tough call. Note that I’m not saying diversity; I’m saying abundance. The reason why I say that is that in low precipitation periods electrofishing the same sties year after year in small, forested freestone streams in general reveals a pattern of abundance. Many more frogs and salamanders appear in and along these streams in dry weather probably because the surrounding forest habitat and vernal ponds have temporarily dried up. The change in abundance is obvious in sites that have been sampled repeatedly at the same time of the year and the abundance seen in and along other forested freestone streams is obviously higher than what’s seen more typically in any given summer in small freestoners.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

That is an interesting observation. If I am strictly talking about mountain streams, I have never noticed the correlation between near stream wetlands/saturated environments and quality of a stream/fishing. I never evaluate a stream after one visit, either, but only upon repeat visits.

What makes a brook trout stream "HQ?" One of my favorite mountain streams has lots of boggy wetland type habitat, but all the rest streams running down the otherwise dry sides of mountains and ridges.

I'm talking about HQ and EV water quality designated streams as opposed to HQ fishing.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

The relationship between freestone stream quality and the abundance of amphibians therein is a tough call. Note that I’m not saying diversity; I’m saying abundance. The reason why I say that is that in low precipitation periods electrofishing the same sties year after year in small, forested freestone streams in general reveals a pattern of abundance. Many more frogs and salamanders appear in and along these streams in dry weather probably because the surrounding forest habitat and vernal ponds have temporarily dried up. The change in abundance is obvious in sites that have been sampled repeatedly at the same time of the year and the abundance seen in and along other forested freestone streams is obviously higher than what’s seen more typically in any given summer in small freestoners.

This is good thank you.
I think you give a good reason why and when they end up along the stream.
My claim is only that their abundance is more the more wetlands a stream has, which is generally high quality streams.

I could be wrong, but it was my observation.

 

[jifigz]

I'm talking about HQ and EV water quality designated streams as opposed to HQ fishing.

What are the parameters to being a "HQ" water? The original comment was directed towards a correlation of trout and frogs. In post #6 you state "HQ brook trout waters" and I want to know what those are.

I am just trying to understand what it takes to be a "HQ" or an "EV" water. Is there a comprehensive list of HQ or EV waters? I know being HQ or EV is more about surrounding terrain around the water body and the water quality, not fishing in the stream.

https://files.dep.state.pa.us/Water/Drinking%20Water%20and%20Facility%20Regulation/WaterQualityPortalFiles/Existing%20Use/EU%20table%20list.pdf

In the link above you will notice all streams have a designated use, existing use, and a qualifier. All HQ and EV streams need at least one criterion to be a qualifier to be classified as such it seems? The most common reason looks like it is an RBP assessment/antidegradation. Other factors noted include being a Class A stream or having wild trout, etc. I know the above link isn't a comprehensive list because I know of other streams that are designated as HQ and are not on there.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

What are the parameters to being a "HQ" water? The original comment was directed towards a correlation of trout and frogs. In post #6 you state "HQ brook trout waters" and I want to know what those are.

I am just trying to understand what it takes to be a "HQ" or an "EV" water. Is there a comprehensive list of HQ or EV waters? I know being HQ or EV is more about surrounding terrain around the water body and the water quality, not fishing in the stream.

https://files.dep.state.pa.us/Water/Drinking%20Water%20and%20Facility%20Regulation/WaterQualityPortalFiles/Existing%20Use/EU%20table%20list.pdf

In the link above you will notice all streams have a designated use, existing use, and a qualifier. All HQ and EV streams need at least one criterion to be a qualifier to be classified as such it seems? The most common reason looks like it is an RBP assessment/antidegradation. Other factors noted include being a Class A stream or having wild trout, etc. I know the above link isn't a comprehensive list because I know of other streams that are designated as HQ and are not on there.

I don't know the answer to that, I only said brook trout waters because I spend most my time on those .

What qualifies a stream to be EV or HQ I think is multiple things, but most streams I spend my time on meet that criteria, what ever it is.

 

[jifigz]

I don't know the answer to that, I only said brook trout waters because I spend most my time on those .

What qualifies a stream to be EV or HQ I think is multiple things, but most streams I spend my time on meet that criteria, what ever it is.

Thanks for the honesty in your answer. I don't know either (obviously) but would love to find an exhaustive list of all HQ streams. I found a lot of links to websites that just wouldn't quite give me what I wanted to find.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

25 Pa. Code § 93.9a. Drainage List A.

Information included at this site has been derived directly from the Pennsylvania Code, the Commonwealth's official publication of rules and regulations and from the Pennsylvania Bulletin, the Commonwealth's official gazette for information and rulemaking

www.pacodeandbulletin.gov

If you cycle to the right this is a pretty comprehensive list.

Don't know if its all of them though

 

[jifigz]

That is a much better list than I found. Thanks.

 

[afishinado]

Here's what I found on HQ vs EV stream designations:

How Do Surface Waters Qualify as High Quality or Exceptional Value?​

High Quality (HQ) Waters must meet specific chemistry or biological conditions, if not both. The chemistry standards must include at least one year of water quality data meeting scientific criteria established within Chapter 93 of the PA Code, measuring specific parameters such as dissolved oxygen, temperature and pH (acidity & alkalinity) among others.

For biological conditions to be met, a high quality aquatic community must be supported in that water body. As determined by Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) assessment protocols, the benthic macroinvertebrate (aquatic insects, shellfish, etc.) community must receive a health rating of at least 83%. Lastly, “Class A wild trout streams” as designated by PA Fish and Boat Commission (PAFBC), will qualify a surface water as HQ.

Exceptional Value (EV) Waters are those that will firstly meet HQ standards, and one of several other factors that qualify the surface water for additional protection. These other qualifying conditions include:

• the surface water being located in a refuge or protection area or a state or federal special designation area
• the surface water being designated as a PAFBC “wilderness trout stream,” or designated as “exceptional recreational significance”
• if the surface water scores 92% or higher on the EPA bioassessment protocol for benthic macroinvertebrate community (aquatic insects, shellfish, etc.)

A surface water designated as having an “exceptional ecological significance” is considered EV without requiring any other standards to be met.

Link to source: https://pikeconservation.org/hq-and-ev-streams/