Follow up question from Orvis Podcast re: drop shot nymphing & being in contact

[PaScoGi]

A question was posed to Tom Rosenbauer about drop shot nymphing and he said it is effective but the downside is "you are not in contact with your nymphs"

While I agree with what he said, my question to the euro nymph guys or mono rig guys is:

1. If you use a tag (off of the main line with a surgeon's knot or blood knot) how are you in contact with that fly that is on that dropper? In other words, yes, your weighted point fly can be in contact since it is directly connected to your main rig. But whether you tie a dropper tag that is 2 inches or 6 inches, it is still flowing free and life like and how can you tell a take from the fish any better than with a drop shot rig?

2. What really is the difference between a point fly at the end with a dropper above it and a split shot at the end with a dropper above it? I guess you are using 2 flies. But do you really need 2 flies if you are nymphing? To me a weighted point fly is the same as a piece of split shot. Feel free to explain why using a point fly is not "drop shot nymphing"? Just because it is a tungsten bead on a hook with some thread and a tail attached to it does not mean the concept of having weight at the end is any different.

Thanks for any input. I am still learning but I just don't see the point of using a point fly. If you have 2 flies euro nymphing and I have 1 fly with a split shot aren't we doing the same thing? And if you catch 10 fish because you used 2 flies and I catch 5 fish using 1 fly are you really a better fisher than me? Or did you just present double the options? And if your goal is to catch more fish, why not use 3 flies? Or 5 flies? Or bait?

I just don't understand these euro guys sometimes.

Thanks for any enlightenment.

 

[coyoterahn]

2. What really is the difference between a point fly at the end with a dropper above it and a split shot at the end with a dropper above it?

There really isn’t much difference. Unless someone is trying to be super technical. I use split shot off my point fly mainly because I lose less nymphs. The dropper for the slit shot typically breaks off first because it is a lighter tippet.


If you have 2 flies euro nymphing and I have 1 fly with a split shot aren't we doing the same thing? And if you catch 10 fish because you used 2 flies and I catch 5 fish using 1 fly are you really a better fisher than me? Or did you just present double the options? And if your goal is to catch more fish, why not use 3 flies? Or 5 flies? Or bait?
Yes, in essence we are doing something similar.
Sure, more options can mean more fish.…. sometimes .However the more flies, the greater the chances of tangles, twist ups etc. I usually use 2 nymphs and there are times when I use a wet fly on my dropper tag instead of a nymph.

To sum it up, do what works for you. There are a bunch of different ways to nymph. Opinions and options vary tremendously.
And get too hung up on the “lingo” either. Keep it enjoyable for yourself. And remember, everyone has their own opinion. Take from them what you think is for you and disregard the rest.

 

[Silent Ocelot]

I use two flies instead of using shot and a singular fly. I'd rather have two points of contact than one and I DESPISE using shot in general. It's also nice having two flies at differing points in the water column. The point fly's job is to get the other fly down but I find most of my takes are on the point fly. I'm scared to use shot. It casts horribly and it seems like it will just collide with my rod during casting causing immediate rod death. Only time I use shot is on the DSR where it's required because you can't use weighted flies and you can only use one fly.

When I fish two flies I run an in-line rig so I have tension on both flies. With the dropper tied on the tag end there is no tension but the more free-swinging dropper may entice fish or reach fish in another part of the water column. The in-line rig also has less of an ability to tangle than running a dropper off of a tag end. As for strike detection on the fly that is not under tension, good technique and good reaction time will get the fish in.

 

[dudemanspecial]

I drop shot quite a bit. I do it for 3 reasons:
1- I rarely hang up and almost never lose flies.
2- I can make quick changes to the weight without tying knots and changing flies.
3- I like tying and fishing unweighted flies. I am not a fan of beadheads. I dont have an explanation, I just dont like them.

I do not have issue with feeling or seeing takes. Once that shot hits the bottom the rig is tight and its pretty easy to know you got a hit.

I do have some weighted and beadhead nymphs because sometimes I tangle my rig or break off and it can be a chore retying my 2 tag dropshot rig on the water, especially in wet or cold weather. In that case I usually tie on a beadhead and then tag something off the hook bend.

I caught these 2 on the Little J this past Saturday. First one was a soft hackle on my top dropper on a drop shot rig. Second one was on a beadhead nymph after I tangled my original setup catching the first one.

 

[dudemanspecial]

Also, I do this mostly with a regular 5 weight fly line and a 9 foot rod. I was using a euro rod Saturday though.

 

[Nocktavius]

I like to “drop shot” with a size 6 or 8 heavily weighted Pats. Frequently I catch fish on my “drop shot” and when I lose one I figure they only take like 2 min to tie and I usually carry dozens of them anyways.

Never understood the benefit of using anything other than a point fly to get you down there.

 

[PaScoGi]

thanks all very good points. glad there are options and fishing is fishing. will help me in my debates with the 2 fly euro dudes

 

[PennKev]

First off, see my comments on the euro thread on the main forum....

A question was posed to Tom Rosenbauer about drop shot nymphing and he said it is effective but the downside is "you are not in contact with your nymphs"

While I agree with what he said, my question to the euro nymph guys or mono rig guys is:

While technically true, kinda, slightly. He's mostly wrong...

1. If you use a tag (off of the main line with a surgeon's knot or blood knot) how are you in contact with that fly that is on that dropper? In other words, yes, your weighted point fly can be in contact since it is directly connected to your main rig. But whether you tie a dropper tag that is 2 inches or 6 inches, it is still flowing free and life like and how can you tell a take from the fish any better than with a drop shot rig?

That 2-6" is all the uncontrolled slack you have in the system. Those droppers are tied to a leader, which when fished tight with a tight line, is... ...well.. ..tight. You will never have the same contact that you have with the point fly/weight, but it's pretty dang close. Additionally, if your weight is dragging, even a little, the droppers will be pushed downstream and ahead of the leader, they don't really "free flow" unless the weight is also free flowing. This is something you can control, and tweak to suit your self.

FWIW, I fish the shortest droppers I can get way with. If I feel like I'm getting a good number of strikes on droppers that are 2" or even less, I stick with that. Although, I do beleive that a longer dropper does work better in some situations.

2. What really is the difference between a point fly at the end with a dropper above it and a split shot at the end with a dropper above it? I guess you are using 2 flies. But do you really need 2 flies if you are nymphing? To me a weighted point fly is the same as a piece of split shot. Feel free to explain why using a point fly is not "drop shot nymphing"? Just because it is a tungsten bead on a hook with some thread and a tail attached to it does not mean the concept of having weight at the end is any different.

There is not any difference really except that fishing a point fly as your weight, you are willing to swap lost flies for a few more caught fish. If I fish a fly on the point, it is because I think I need a fly scraping the bottom to catch fish. Whether or not the rig is a drop shot rig, in that case... That's just Euro guys being pedantic.

As for the two fly thing, I almost always fish two flies when nymphing. A drop shot rig for me would look like weight on the point/bottom and then two flies tied off droppers on the leader/tippet above it. Yes. It's worth it. Sometimes fish like the deeper fly, sometimes they like the fly riding higher in the water column. Sometimes I just don't know what the heck to tie on so fishing two flies gives me a chance to test two patterns at once.

Thanks for any input. I am still learning but I just don't see the point of using a point fly. If you have 2 flies euro nymphing and I have 1 fly with a split shot aren't we doing the same thing? And if you catch 10 fish because you used 2 flies and I catch 5 fish using 1 fly are you really a better fisher than me? Or did you just present double the options? And if your goal is to catch more fish, why not use 3 flies? Or 5 flies? Or bait?

Plenty of reasons to do it a certain way. There comes a point when more flies just equals more tangles. Some places don't allow more than 2 flies at a time. Natural bait is yucky and is often overated. Etc. Etc.

Again, the two fly thing.. I might not be fishing my two flies better than your one fly, but If I'm doubling your catch rate just because I fished an extra fly, then maybe there's something to it.

 

[PaScoGi]

Follow up question - if the fish are taking your "point fly" then why even bother with a dropper? What purpose does a dropper on a tag serve if your point fly is working?

 

[hooker-of-men]

Personally, I don't walk up to the water and pick the correct fly immediately. Working two nymphs (or a dead drifted streamer and a nymph, etc.) helps figure out what the fish are on more quickly.

There is also a school of thought - with which I tend to agree - that the fish will often go for one fly, refuse, and then take the other fly because they have less time to inspect it. Same appeal as a dry/dropper, but with two subsurface flies.

 

[PennKev]

Follow up question - if the fish are taking your "point fly" then why even bother with a dropper? What purpose does a dropper on a tag serve if your point fly is working?

Two presentations, and more chances to catch fish.

That said, again, I prefer two flies on dropper tags above the shot. Simply put, the flies that are off the bottom tied to dropper tags usually out produce a point fly dragging bottom. I recall one of the big names in Euro nymphing stating the same recently. I want say it was George D. But not 100% certain I remember correctly.

At any rate, you figure out what is working by trying it. There are days when the lower dropper is the only one producing, days when a fly on the point produces, and days when a dropper fairly high up on the leader does the trick. Using multiple flies is a short cut to figuring it out. There are some days I don't bother with multiple flies once it's become clear the fish prefer a fly tied in at a certain spot on the leader. Many days the fish eat em all, so I keep fishing em all.

I get the sense that you don't wan to fish multiple flies or tie in droppers. That's fine. Do whatever. It's a personal choice. There are, however, reasons to do it differently.

 

[PaScoGi]

good stuff, valid replies that make sense.

instead of fishing 2 flies i just change out my one fly with another fly if its not working. pretty simple stuff. the split shot stays on & whats great is i can even remove it in shallow water or add more in deeper water. all without opening a fly box.

 

[BruceC2C]

If I read correctly, and u r " just starting out"
...perhaps rather than needing talking points for your " debates with the EuroDudes".

Your time would b better spent committed to learning to Roll Cast and fish one Nymph with good technique.

When u have those skills in your quiver,
u can have some street cred with your debates.

Some good, valuable insight from others here above.

Kinda like learning to play golf and u keep changing your swing
from every 5 cent swing tip u get from other golfers in the group.
U have no foundation.
U r confused & frustrated
Get your foundation first.

Fish the way u wanna fish.
Develop your skills.
Try not to get immersed in the avalanche of lingo.