Fishing Under Fire?

[Tigereye]

Post wasn't aimed at you Baron. Far from it. Post was directed at those misguided souls who emotionalise everything, including killing for eating.

 

[Baron]

I didn't take it that way and I hope HOM doesn't feel attacked either. I kind of felt like my toes were stepped on lightly and also my heritage was under question and I wanted to mention a few things. But just like Stocking over Brook Trout and virtually all politics its hard to mention things without insinuating that there is a deeper issue. I know the type you mentioned well as I was a grounds employee in the 90's at Lafayette College and I saw the sentiment against all these things and more. It happens in a stealth fashion at first and after many papers are written and names mentioned certain normal beliefs or practices are out the door and to even mention them leads to shaming. Being shamed can be very hard on the soul. But to be quiet sucks the life right out of a person no matter which perspective they represent. Thats why I speak up on certain issues. Like Russel Crowe once said: "its the lesser of two weevils".

 

[hooker-of-men]

Who, me? No bad vibes here.

I won't derail the initial conversation much further, except to emphasize the distinction between the family farm or personal raising of animals and factory farming. My comments are directed towards industrial farming. Small scale farmimg often comes much closer to the ethics I'm invested in in which people may do some harm (killing, hooking fish) but also largely take on the role of steward. This is the idea I feel is important for the original post.

(Now the reasons why I don't live off a diet of ethically farmed meat/dairy is a conversation for another thread outside of the fishing forum about economics. Which I think would also be interesting for considering the ways in which poor rural communities often live off Denny's or processed garbage rather than products farmed with care in their community... )

 

[wgmiller]

hooker-of-men wrote:
So... I live on a vegan diet with the exception of harvesting a fish every couple years and occasionally eating venison harvested by my family. No dairy. No meat other than what we personally take, and limited quantities of that. I think about the ethics of fishing in relation to this a lot, especially because my dietary choices are in substantial ways motivated by problems with the way that we take animals for granted and with factory farming especially.

The best way I can articulate living with this seeming contradiction is that fly fishing is tremendously valuable [trigger warning: vague hippie content coming] for putting me in touch with and teaching me about the natural world. Whereas buying hunks of meat with a USDA stamp from the glowing fluorescent depression aisle alienates me from nature and any understanding of ecology, actually going out and learning about fish, waterways, bugs, animals, the woods, etc. makes me, I feel, a better, smarter, more careful person all around.

Could I do this without hooking fish? I guess... I could take up hookless fishing like those nerds that were trending awhile back or I could get into birding or something. That doesn't sound much fun, and I see no reason to do so. Given the big picture, the small amount of harm I inflict is not even nearly measurable in terms of the large amount of harm society does through nearly every aspect of how we feed, shelter, outfit, etc. ourselves. My guess is that many people who take fly fishing seriously are, on the whole, also invested in conservation, ecology, and just general mindfulness of nature in ways that result in a net positive impact on the environment compared to your average schmuck.

I wonder if your date does much to act on her passion for taking care of animals beyond lecturing people who fish (and, oh yeah, actually eating animals)?

I dumped meat and dairy over five years ago (for various reasons) and haven't looked back. It started out more as curiosity than anything and once I discovered how good I felt, I just kept running with it. I'm not a hardcore hippie vegan who chastises others for not sharing my views on food. Much like you, I still fly fish, have leather products, etc.; it's just that I choose not to consume meat and dairy products (fish included). I work in a fire station, so let's just say I've had to thicken my skin over the years :-D

That being said, I see a lot of "things" in my various social media feeds pertaining to the impact of animal agriculture and its impacts on the environment. At times over the last several years I have given pause to see how fly fishing meshes with my values and how I wish to live my life. I think anyone that eats a vegan diet inevitably starts thinking more about how we interact with animals in our world. As a result of that, it's only natural that choosing to fly fish (or fish in general) is questioned as well.

I too am under the impression that many fly anglers take into account the broader view of nature and their activities. Such topics as conservation, clean water and air, and countless others are intertwined with fly fishing and only serve to create a more well-rounded angler.

With respect to the woman who took offense to catch-and-release fly angling, I'd say just send her on her way. We all become heavily entrenched in our views as we age and we're likely not going to change anyone's mind. As I've dated through the years I've had to figure what attributes are a "no-go" (Trumper, etc.) and which are the ones I'm willing to live with. At the end of the day, it's not worth sacrificing who you are or your values to please another. Life's too short for that!

 

[troutbert]

Meat produced by well managed grazing is one of the most environmentally friendly ways of producing food.

Because the soil is protected by the permanent cover and root systems of grasses.

The amount of soil erosion and transport to streams is far less than in croplands.

Is fishing coming increasingly under fire? Yes, I think so. There is more of that then there was 40 or 50 years ago.

 

[Baron]

hooker-of-men wrote:
largely take on the role of steward. This is the idea I feel is important for the original post.

This Nails it Hooker-of men! well done. We have to own these issues and learn to be good caretakers.
We rotated crops and grazing areas to alleviate soil stress and erosion. This allowed a reduction in Fert. and also let us get away with much less, if any, pesticides.
6 yrs ago I developed pre-diabetes, higher Bp, went to 305lbs and then some. I didn't give up meat but I cut the portion of all the pasta, bread, dairy and meat. and added at least one side a day of some sort of green. I'm now at 255 (and6'2") and losing a half pound or so a month. No more meat than the palm of the hand. Less and less red meat, an increase in fish.

 

[FarmerDave]

Yesterday morning a new bull calf was born here on the farm. I've decided to name him Vegan. Or I could give that name to one of the steer being sent in for processing next month. That way I can start my Vegan diet much sooner. And if I sell half, I can charge more, right?

 

[RRR]

Jifigz Apparently you have never met one of these people or at least never had a conversation with one on this subject. There is absolutely no reasoning with them. They assume everything you say in defense of your sport is a lie and completely dismiss whatever you say. They can become extremely emotional and cry and sob. They are totally irrational. The best thing you can do is get away from them as fast and far as you can and don't even try to reason with them.

 

[hooker-of-men]

wgmiller wrote:

I dumped meat and dairy over five years ago (for various reasons) and haven't looked back. It started out more as curiosity than anything and once I discovered how good I felt, I just kept running with it. I'm not a hardcore hippie vegan who chastises others for not sharing my views on food. Much like you, I still fly fish, have leather products, etc.; it's just that I choose not to consume meat and dairy products (fish included). I work in a fire station, so let's just say I've had to thicken my skin over the years :-D

That being said, I see a lot of "things" in my various social media feeds pertaining to the impact of animal agriculture and its impacts on the environment. At times over the last several years I have given pause to see how fly fishing meshes with my values and how I wish to live my life. I think anyone that eats a vegan diet inevitably starts thinking more about how we interact with animals in our world. As a result of that, it's only natural that choosing to fly fish (or fish in general) is questioned as well.

I too am under the impression that many fly anglers take into account the broader view of nature and their activities. Such topics as conservation, clean water and air, and countless others are intertwined with fly fishing and only serve to create a more well-rounded angler.

With respect to the woman who took offense to catch-and-release fly angling, I'd say just send her on her way. We all become heavily entrenched in our views as we age and we're likely not going to change anyone's mind. As I've dated through the years I've had to figure what attributes are a "no-go" (Trumper, etc.) and which are the ones I'm willing to live with. At the end of the day, it's not worth sacrificing who you are or your values to please another. Life's too short for that!

Good to meet you! I knew I couldn't be the only weirdo doing something like this, but I haven't met anyone else.

 

[jifigz]

RRR wrote:
Jifigz Apparently you have never met one of these people or at least never had a conversation with one on this subject. There is absolutely no reasoning with them. They assume everything you say in defense of your sport is a lie and completely dismiss whatever you say. They can become extremely emotional and cry and sob. They are totally irrational. The best thing you can do is get away from them as fast and far as you can and don't even try to reason with them.

Yeah, I've met some like it before. There aren't many around my parts, though. I know, most people won't listen and won't have their mind changed, and that's fine, it doesn't worry me.

Every person like that is one less person crowding the water.

 

[Bonzoso]

I'm a duffer fly fisherman and a liberal. I care what other folks think usually but I take it all with a grain of salt. No one is going to agree 100% with the things other people do. I can respect their feelings as long as they respect mine. I sometimes have thoughts about my love of fishing and hunting and the existential aspects. I am a meat eater but I feel remorse, in some respects, for every animal I harvest. I can resolve my feelings about catch and release with the fact that I don't believe that a fish hooked through the lip will "suffer". I may be wrong but I do enjoy catching fish. I harvest fish and animals for food, I do not buy that portion of food in the store so I can live with that.

 

[tomgamber]

But wha :roll: t about the poor mayflies? Who's gonna save the mayflies?!

BTW, I'm pretty darn Liberal. This ain't a Liberal thing. PETA ain't all democrats. Fact.

 

[FarmerDave]

Yes you are, and yes it is. ;-)

Card carrying member of People Eating Tasty Animals and conservative leaning.

That said, if I was to pick a side for the simple sake of argument and wanted the best shot at winning the argument, I am not sure which side I would pick.

What do you have? You are catching fish just for the fun of it, and not only can it cause harm, a small percentage of those fish die.

You (we) can rationalize some of that away, but and we have been over all of it before. Fishing is a blood sport. C&R simply minimizes the blood.

Best arguments IMO are.

Animals don't have rights. However, we should not deliberately cause harm to animals just for the fun of it. And there enlies the dilemma.


So, I don't fish just for the fun of it. I fish to stay in practice in the event there is a liberal apocalypse. ;-) I just throw most of them back for now because I prefer a good steak or hamburger over most (OK, all) fresh water fish.;-)

That reminds me. I am out of steak and low on hamburger, and it's been awhile since I had a panfish dinner.

 

[pcray1231]

Greenghost, in my 40's, but also in the unpleasant experience of dating well past the age where its "normal".

Exactly right, if she can't get her head around that, she ain't for you. My last relationship, the 1st date was fly fishing. I spent a year with her and woulda married her but external factors on her end intervened. Ideally the next will want to go with me, but at least accepting me doing it without a guilt trip is a pre-requisite. Don't change yourself for someone, made that mistake before, it ends badly.

But interestingly enough, I took a few work trips to Switzerland. They accept fishing just fine. But you HAVE to keep em. Doing it for food is well respected, but hurting the fishies for fun is considered cruel. The local guides and such don't much like the law and there are a lot of "oops, he flopped back in the water after the picture" moments, wink wink.

This is the difference between the conservation ethos, which is sourced from sportsmen, and the environmentalist/animal rights ethos, which isn't. The lines do blur and each side finds themselves as allies in some fights, but they are different mindsets. In America, the conservation philosophy is historically strong, even amongst the public. That isn't true worldwide.

Conservationist - man is part of nature. Manage it for the long term best interests of man. Sustainability, etc..

Environmentalist - man is an intruder on nature. Don't touch it. If its already been touched, restore it to it's pre-man state.

 

[larkmark]

It has been interesting to watch my grandchildren and children and other kids fishing over the years. I usually just let them take the lead and make the choice about what to do with fish they catch. I would say most often they will put them back if left alone to decide. One remarked that she wanted to keep a sunfish as a pet and cried when we left it go. If I take them out on a stocked stream for trout and others are keeping fish they often want to string them up as well. Not always though. My son wanted to let them go. None of them are big fans of eating trout but of course I like fried trout so I take them all. My youngest boy went out yesterday on a stocked stream which is approaching 70 degrees. i told him to keep a few for me because he usually lets them go.
If I analyzed my actions on a daily basis I know I am doing harm to the planet and causing pain to other humans and animals. We live in an imperfect world. I have very mixed feelings about all of it. I have enjoyed fishing for my entire life and have evolved to be a more humane angler I think. It is one activity I still really enjoy, right or wrong.