CLSports
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I would say yes.
I would say yes.
Bamboozle
Well-known member
But the WCO would say no.
fly_flinger
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D!ck.
JakesLeakyWaders
Active member
I've often been puzzled by this. I regularly fish for bass early in the season in a stream that is stocked in Adams Co. but nott in York Co. Clearly the section of stream in York County does not hold trout, but the regulations as written seem to clearly state that the stream is closed 30 some miles downstream to it's mouth.
Swattie87
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Saw two guys in a Bass boat fishing Penns (presumably for Bass) a few hundred yards up from its mouth near Selinsgrove (Snyder County) today. Is that legal? I think it’s questionable now since Penns has a STW section upstream in Union County. As silly as it is.
Bamboozle
Well-known member
Totally legal because as I said several times already, the Closed Period (March 1 to Opening Day) is in effect on Stocked Trout Waters ONLY as listed in the Summary BY COUNTY.
Penns Creek does NOT appear in the Summary listings for Snyder County and besides that, where it is listed in Mifflin/Union Counties & Union County, it is listed by section not just as Penns Creek.
In other words, just because appears in one county doesn't mean the entire creek is closed.
It's as open to fishing now in Snyder County as any other time with NO harvest for Trout until Opening Day.
Penns Creek does NOT appear in the Summary listings for Snyder County and besides that, where it is listed in Mifflin/Union Counties & Union County, it is listed by section not just as Penns Creek.
In other words, just because appears in one county doesn't mean the entire creek is closed.
It's as open to fishing now in Snyder County as any other time with NO harvest for Trout until Opening Day.
Dave_W
Moderator
Staff member
It's not closed in York County - you're fine fishing bass there.
Dave_W
Moderator
Staff member
I am in agreement with Bamboozle on this matter.
(Sheesh. I suppose we're destined to argue this in perpetuity. :roll
Bamboozle
Well-known member
I can't tell you how many times I get challenged by folks when I am fishing in the week prior to the opening. Just last week I was fishing a Class A that isn't listed or stocked ANYWHERE and people were blowing the horn and stopping to tell me I wasn't allowed to fish.Dave_W wrote:
I am in agreement with Bamboozle on this matter.
(Sheesh. I suppose we're destined to argue this in perpetuity. :roll
Trust me it will only get worse now that the Summary isn't a free giveaway anymore.
Swattie87
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I agree that the Reg book USED to say that. It doesn't say that any more. Can you show me the "by county" piece in the 2019 reg book? Maybe I'm missing it?
(From a practical standpoint, I completely agree with your interpretation, and it was my interpretation previously when the "by county" wording was in the reg book. I still think it's the most likely interpretation to be applied by a WCO too. I can't imagine a WCO hassling those guys on Penns, or a guy fishing the Allegheny in Pittsburgh. The literal interpretation, as written in the 2019 reg book, is closed headwaters to mouth though. Why? Again, unless someone can show me the "by county" piece still exists in the 2019 book, and I'm missing it.)
Here's the wording in the 2019 Reg Book for STW sections that I'm seeing, for reference:
"Many streams, lakes, ponds and reservoirs are officially classified as “stocked trout waters” (PFBC GIS data at PASDA). This means that these waters contain significant portions that are open to public fishing and are stocked with trout. These waters are open to trout harvest during the “extended season” (see Commonwealth Inland Waters). Unlisted tributary streams (those not included in this list of “stocked trout waters”) are not open to harvest of trout during the “extended season.” Only stocked trout waters and all waters downstream of stocked trout waters are open during this period. Spearing fish is not permitted in any of these waters at any time of the year.
These waters are closed to all fishing (including taking of minnows) from March 1 to 8 a.m. on the opening day of the trout season. A person shall be deemed to be fishing if he or she has in possession any fishing line, rod or other device that can be used for fishing while on or in any water or on the banks within 25 feet of any water where fishing is prohibited. Unless geographically designated in the Region Regulated Trout Waters section, the term stocked trout waters includes the entire stream from headwaters to mouth."
Bamboozle
Well-known member
From the 2019 Summary Page 20:
“Find the regulation that applies to where you want to fish.
To assist trout anglers in knowing the regulations that apply to locations where they fish, the trout regulations are separated by PFBC Regions. From pages 22 through 29, each region contains a listing of its counties separated by specific trout regulation. An explanation of each regulation and its requirements is on this page and the next page.”
Also from Page 20:
Unless geographically designated in the Region Regulated Trout Waters section, the term trout-stocked waters includes the entire stream from headwaters to mouth.
The first key sentence in these confusing paragraphs is: “To assist trout anglers in knowing the regulations that apply to locations where they fish, the trout regulations are separated by PFBC Regions”.
That means the regulations & definitions are BY region or county.
The second key sentence is: Unless geographically designated in the Region Regulated Trout Waters section, the term trout-stocked waters includes the entire stream from headwaters to mouth”.
Again the key word is REGION which means if the stream doesn’t appear on the list in the region or COUNTY where you want to fish, it is NOT Stocked Trout Waters and subject to the March 1st closure, but is subject to NO HARVEST of trout.
The “geographically designated” part means IF the stream is defined BY SECTION in a particular region or county or doesn't appear at all, other NON-defined section are open, again with NO harvest.
Trust me that this is nothing new. It has been this way in Pennsylvania for as long as I have been fishing which is a long time.
I have also called the PFBC and emailed them numerous times to verify if my understanding was accurate, once I even called from a stream after getting the evil eyes for fishing in the weeks prior to Opening Day.
If you still don’t believe me, call and verify with law enforcement in Harrisburg FIRST, not at the local level. No disrespect to our hard working WCO’s and PFBC office personnel but without getting into specifics, on more than a few occasions I’ve encountered a misinterpretation at the local level of various regs and on those occasions, I was right.
“Find the regulation that applies to where you want to fish.
To assist trout anglers in knowing the regulations that apply to locations where they fish, the trout regulations are separated by PFBC Regions. From pages 22 through 29, each region contains a listing of its counties separated by specific trout regulation. An explanation of each regulation and its requirements is on this page and the next page.”
Also from Page 20:
Unless geographically designated in the Region Regulated Trout Waters section, the term trout-stocked waters includes the entire stream from headwaters to mouth.
The first key sentence in these confusing paragraphs is: “To assist trout anglers in knowing the regulations that apply to locations where they fish, the trout regulations are separated by PFBC Regions”.
That means the regulations & definitions are BY region or county.
The second key sentence is: Unless geographically designated in the Region Regulated Trout Waters section, the term trout-stocked waters includes the entire stream from headwaters to mouth”.
Again the key word is REGION which means if the stream doesn’t appear on the list in the region or COUNTY where you want to fish, it is NOT Stocked Trout Waters and subject to the March 1st closure, but is subject to NO HARVEST of trout.
The “geographically designated” part means IF the stream is defined BY SECTION in a particular region or county or doesn't appear at all, other NON-defined section are open, again with NO harvest.
Trust me that this is nothing new. It has been this way in Pennsylvania for as long as I have been fishing which is a long time.
I have also called the PFBC and emailed them numerous times to verify if my understanding was accurate, once I even called from a stream after getting the evil eyes for fishing in the weeks prior to Opening Day.
If you still don’t believe me, call and verify with law enforcement in Harrisburg FIRST, not at the local level. No disrespect to our hard working WCO’s and PFBC office personnel but without getting into specifics, on more than a few occasions I’ve encountered a misinterpretation at the local level of various regs and on those occasions, I was right.
Swattie87
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I think you’re right here too, and I agree with you, but I’m not 100% convinced that’s the same legal conclusion a court would come to from reading the reg book. (Where you’d end up if ticketed by a WCO who interpreted it different from you, and you fought it.)
That required a lot of your own legal interpretation to arrive at the same conclusion as “unless geographically designated, closed in the county (or counties) in which it is listed as a STW.” - Like it used to say.
Very little of your reasoning is actually in the reg book. Nowhere does it say Region = County. The fact that there are multiple counties within each of the six PFBC “Regions” likely weakens the argument that region and county can be used interchangeably.
That required a lot of your own legal interpretation to arrive at the same conclusion as “unless geographically designated, closed in the county (or counties) in which it is listed as a STW.” - Like it used to say.
Very little of your reasoning is actually in the reg book. Nowhere does it say Region = County. The fact that there are multiple counties within each of the six PFBC “Regions” likely weakens the argument that region and county can be used interchangeably.
silverfox
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This whole thing is so convoluted. It's debated here pretty much every year in the month of March. It would be nice if the regs and the language were simplified.
Part of the problem has to do with stocking class A streams. If they would just stop that practice, half of the issue would go away automagically.
It could be this simple (Stream = headwaters to mouth and all tributaries);
Class A Streams and Unlisted Streams = No closed season for fishing. Harvest per season dates/limits.
Stocked Trout Stream = Fishing & Harvest per season dates/limits.
Except on special regulation sections of streams.
Part of the problem has to do with stocking class A streams. If they would just stop that practice, half of the issue would go away automagically.
It could be this simple (Stream = headwaters to mouth and all tributaries);
Class A Streams and Unlisted Streams = No closed season for fishing. Harvest per season dates/limits.
Stocked Trout Stream = Fishing & Harvest per season dates/limits.
Except on special regulation sections of streams.
Bamboozle
Well-known member
My reasoning is actually based on calling & emailing Law Enforcement for clarification and asking questions in regards to SPECIFIC streams and or stream sections.
I am not a lawyer, just a fisherman with a ton of non-stocked trout waters at my disposal in my area who doesn't harvest and likes to fish all year long. I am also someone who likes to be on the right side of the law so I have checked and rechecked this gray area many, many, many times and I have NEVER been told I was wrong at the local level or in Harrisburg.
If someone doesn't want to fish this time of year because they are not sure, it is fine by me. That leaves more open water for me.
If someone wants to challenge my interpretation and call a WCO to give me a ticket, bring it on...I know I am right and wouldn't get a ticket anyway.
However, did you ever think that maybe the PFBC would rather people are confused and not fish anywhere after March 1st for the simple reason that the resources are busy with stocking and don't have the time to chase down doofuses that would still fish in the wrong places or have a cooler full of of fish?
In the meantime don't believe me, call and ask.
In regards to the stocked Class A's being the issue, that situation is well defined and only represents a tiny portion of the total Class A waters and the same argument could be made for Special Regulation Sections which many think are only regulated as to tackle, not when you can or can't fish them.
The PFBC has been working on only listing Stocked Trout Waters by name if the entire stream is in a single county which really spells things out based on how it works with the listings.
It really sad though that all it takes to utilize the resource is a fishin' pole. No knowledge of the resource or the laws that govern its use is required. That is NOT the case in many other countries or possibly not in other states.
Debate away, I'm going fishing until I hear otherwise from an official source.
Swattie87
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Everyone should read the regs and make up their own minds. Making up your own mind SHOULD be relatively easy and based on easy to understand and apply regulations. In this scenario, it is not.
Again, I agree with, and apply the same interpretation as you when it comes to March fishing. But to say that’s what the regs say, is inaccurate. That’s how we’ve interpreted them. I think we’re probably right, but I’m not 100% sure. Only way for sure to know is to get ticketed, and have a judge interpret the law and make a decision...A situation most anglers would clearly rather avoid through better crafted regulations.
Again, I agree with, and apply the same interpretation as you when it comes to March fishing. But to say that’s what the regs say, is inaccurate. That’s how we’ve interpreted them. I think we’re probably right, but I’m not 100% sure. Only way for sure to know is to get ticketed, and have a judge interpret the law and make a decision...A situation most anglers would clearly rather avoid through better crafted regulations.
Bamboozle
Well-known member
It is perfectly clear to me and always has been however, here's a simple way to test our theory.
If you live in Morgantown, call the WCO for Berks and ask him if it would have been OK to fish French Creek from the outflow of Hopewell Lake down to Route 345 during the Closed Period after March 1 to the Regional Opening Day.
The answer should be YES because French Creek is NOT listed as Stocked Trout Water in Berks County, just in Chester County.
If he says no, ask why citing what I just said.
If you live in Morgantown, call the WCO for Berks and ask him if it would have been OK to fish French Creek from the outflow of Hopewell Lake down to Route 345 during the Closed Period after March 1 to the Regional Opening Day.
The answer should be YES because French Creek is NOT listed as Stocked Trout Water in Berks County, just in Chester County.
If he says no, ask why citing what I just said.
Swattie87
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That’s not an accurate test. Instead, I could ask him to write me a ticket for fishing there, even if he didn’t think he had to or should, and then I could contest it before a judge who interprets the reg and makes a decision that would apply moving forward. That would be an accurate test. Though not one I’m interested in participating in.
Your last post recognizes the problem, though possibly inadvertently ...The WCO’s answer “should be”. There shouldn’t be any question of what the answer would be, if the reg was written clearly as to address its actual intent.
I’ve called (or emailed) and asked similar questions to you on streams far better than French. I’m glad your answers have been consistent. Mine have not. Everywhere I fish in the month of March I’m comfortable with and/or believe the risk of a WCO ticketing me after discussing it with me is sufficiently low for me to tolerate it. I’m applying the same logic as you. It should just be easier to figure out and understand.
Your last post recognizes the problem, though possibly inadvertently ...The WCO’s answer “should be”. There shouldn’t be any question of what the answer would be, if the reg was written clearly as to address its actual intent.
I’ve called (or emailed) and asked similar questions to you on streams far better than French. I’m glad your answers have been consistent. Mine have not. Everywhere I fish in the month of March I’m comfortable with and/or believe the risk of a WCO ticketing me after discussing it with me is sufficiently low for me to tolerate it. I’m applying the same logic as you. It should just be easier to figure out and understand.
