Fingerling Programs in Your Neck of the Woods

It depends on what you consider successful, and yes all three rivers are VERY different. According to Rick Lorson, the southwest area fishery manager, catching 1 fish per hour is what their goal is on the Youghiogheny fingerling program. Once that goal is achieved they are content with that outcome unless people speak up and try to make it better ( I would say they have accomplished that goal). I have no experience on the Allegheny so I can't comment. The Clarion does have a decent amount of natural reproduction going on, so the added fingerlings are a bonus. That's a big difference in my opinion, so if you try and compare the effectiveness of the fingerling program, you would have to do it stream by stream. In my experience the program doesn't work well in the waters that have little to no natural reproduction.
 
Something I forgot to mention about Green Spring.

Though it has been 15 years or more since I was there, I used to fish it a few times a month and a regular feature was the large number of Rock Bass that showed up in the Fall. Actually I guess they may have always been there but went heavily on the feed at that time. Not sure, but I don't recall catching them at other times of the year.

So speculatively, and depending on the size of fingerlings stocked, if the stocking takes place in Fall, and if Rock Bass are still making that migration/and or are going on the feed in good numbers, the Rock Bass may be having themselves a nice trout banquet.

This is on top of the other issues that make a wild trout jumpstart problematic.
 
I was told by PFBC personnel that a fingerling stocking program, in order to be a success, would have at least 25% of those fish stocked remaining when the stream is surveyed the following year.

There's something that's been eating at me for a long time now. So many folks declare the hatchery reared trout, both adults and fingerlings, so genetically inferior that they almost seem to be no longer worthy of being labeled trout. Many say that they (the incredibly "genetically inferior" hatchery trout) can't survive for various reasons and many also claim that these fish are barely capable, if at all, of successful recruitment. Would someone please provide some scientific basis/documentation supporting these allegations?

 
Per Lefty’s comments, I too would like to see scientific data that today’s hatchery raised trout can’t produce offspring given a stream has the right conditions for reproduction.

Could I surmise that many of our current Class A and B wild streams with wild brown trout had original parents that were hatchery raised?

Is someone suggesting that current hatchery raised brown trout are so genetically inferior that there is little likelihood that they can reproduce given favorable spawning conditions?

Any information would be most welcomed.

Dale
 
Old Lefty: those trout that survive the first several months in a hatchery, may be "selected" for flourishing in a non-natural environment. But they carry genes of fish capable of thriving in a natural environment. I have always maintained that it takes exceeding long chains of inbreeding to remove genes from the pool that favor survival in a natural environment, and have expressed doubt that this has occurred to any significant degree in hatchery trout. That said, the sooner fry are introduced to nature, the more likely that "selection" will be based upon natural rather than artificial factors.
 
Jack,

I'm not sure if you are saying that hatchery trout that survives let's say for a year or until spawning season won't be successful in spawning.

In my little world, I fish close to a dozen Class A wild streams (not the famous spring or limestoners) that were not fingerling stocked, stocked at one time with "adult" hatchery raised browns and have the Class A population.

So I asked, how did this Class A population begin?

Dale
 
No, I am not saying what you think. I have no prejudice against hatchery raised trout and their genetic makeup.
 
If the hatchery fingerlings carry the genes and are capable of spawning, why not stock fingerlings over top of existing wild trout populations? Wouldn't it only help? (Comments based on above posts)

Is the data that supports that they are genetically inferior? Not sure but I'll continue to assume they are unless there's data to support they aren't. I'm pretty sure the genes are watered down compared to the stock of 50 years ago. To a farm raised fish, the human silhouette signals food....exact opposite the reaction you get on lets say, the letort. Farm raised fish don't typically seek cover because all they understand is a bare raceway. Learned behavior? Maybe. Many don't exhibit behavior tthat would help increase odds of survival, even after being in the stream for a while. I don't know if PFBC refreshes the gene pool periodically or not. Don't think it would hurt.

The flip side is every wild brown cught in this state was stocked at one point. Same for any wild bows being caught so it proves that stocked can reproduce and make wilds.

Touching on troutbert's post....why is there success in some waters but not others? Lehigh, Clarion, Yough and Po were mentioned. 3 of the 4 were larger waters. I question if water quality, habitat or size of waterways plays into the success equation. Very interesting. The Yough holds some big fish as does the Lehigh. Rugged conditions making fishing by foot difficult may be a key factor as not all stockers can be easily picked off. I've always thought that dumping fingerlings into some rivers isn't doing much more than feeding the giant holdovers and larger wild fish.

What about an experiment where a stream with viable food, temp and cover is selected. Stock fingerlings in the fall or spring. Close that stream to ALL fishing for 18 months. Go back and survey to see what happened. If left undisturbed, did the wild traits emerge? Did the fish spawn and create a new generation of wild fish? I'd back that experiment 100%.
 
out of curiosity are all your trout stocked (in rivers) diploids? or polys (typically triploids up here anyways).

"But now so many PA anglers have grown so accustom to putting their fish in one day and catching them the next that "put-and-take" has become 'traditional' angling"

This has become a common trait amongst fisherman across the country. When I take people chasing trout instead of the typical salmon trips, the first question asked is what is the limit. I'm not sure which, my dumbfound look or smart remark, catches them by surprise, but it never fails it always does. After a day or three, most come around, though some still have the desire to kill every fish landed.

 
Why fix the actual problem (habitat etc) when we can just dump some fish in a stream?

Exactly.
 
Sometimes I think if other fisheries managers looked at the expected catch rate in PA they'd laugh at 1 fish per hour. I know if that's what I caught I'd want my money back. Who goes out expecting 1 fish per hour, that's a sad stat of angling if that's considered a good catch rate.
In the Delaware River and Falling Spring the rainbows were established long ago, in the case of the 'D' those fish came from a train wreck, and the fish from a hatchery were supposed to go to another hatchery, but in an effort to save the fish, they dumped them in the river. This was during the 1890's when the trout they had were spawned from eggs shipped from a hatch on the McCloud River, these fish, were more than likely a combination of rainbows and steelhead, because they were seperated in the hatchery before the eggs were fertilized.
In the wild rainbows and steel can hybridize, but don't because of different life histories. Fisheries folks died know that then, and in the hatcheries they mixed them together, creating the original stock of breeders, which because they were from wild stock, were essentially wild fish. Since then the fish have been raised to survive in hatcheries grow fast and get thrown into streams at about 1 1/2 years old. These fish are then caught.
Studies have shown that the 'D' fish move great distances in the Upper 'D' for both food and spawning. All the Delaware fish spawn in tributaries and eventually migrate to the larger water at about 12 inches. These long migrations seem to indicate a different genetic code, because in PFBC studies it's rainbows that can be expected to stay where they are stocked when put in streams.
 
Per Lefty’s comments, I too would like to see scientific data that today’s hatchery raised trout can’t produce offspring given a stream has the right conditions for reproduction.

There's been lengthy threads with lots of links, feel free to search!

Early in the hatchery programs (in the west and Midwest), hatcheries had a heck of a time raising trout in captivity. They were trying to raise genetically wild fish. They'd attack each other, run themselves into walls scooting from hatchery workers, spook easily and refuse to eat within hours after being spooked, etc. This wasn't learned behavior, it was genetic, as their offspring born in the hatchery would do the same.

Nonetheless, they did get SOME fish. And other hatcheries, using different starting strains, had some as well. Over time, they learned which strains had higher success rates. Hatcheries traded eggs and fish of their most successful and desirable fish, and in a fairly short number of years they had collectively created strains that were able to be raised in captivity with much higher success rates. In the last 100 years or so they've been perfecting those strains, for hatchery raising, to grow quickly, to breed when they want them to, to have certain colors, be tolerant of certain diets, to spook less easily, etc.

It seems, though, that nationwide, many are finding that these hatchery strains do poorly in a wild environment. They don't survive as long. They reproduce at a very poor rate. Some Midwest hatcheries, with the goal of "re-seeding" streams, have had some success by going back to wild strains raised in a hatchery, and utilizing lower density raceways, cover in the race-ways, automatic feeders, etc. They aren't looking to provide a fishery directly from stocked fish, so they don't need the huge numbers. They're looking to "seed" streams they think are capable of holding their own wild populations.

That said, Jack does have a point that you haven't totally removed the "wild" genes from the population. You've skewed the population so that fish with traits favorable to growth in the wild are in the minority, and those with traits favorable in captivity are in the majority. But all of the above always were, and still are, part of the population. It's not quite "evolution" yet, it's just selective breeding. If we wanted to, say, eliminate blonde hair from human populations, we could get rid of 90+% of them in 2 generations! But it may take hundreds to achieve 100%.

Hence, hatchery fish may, on average, do very poorly in the wild compared to genetically wild fish. But that doesn't mean that NONE succeed. And just as it only took a few generations to minimize those traits, it'd likewise take only a few generations to get them back.

Could I surmise that many of our current Class A and B wild streams with wild brown trout had original parents that were hatchery raised?

Hatchery born, yes. But the majority were seeded in the early 1900's, when hatchery strains were closer, genetically, to wild fish. And they stocked them as not even fingerlings. They were fry, transported around the state by trains, and given to individuals who put them in backpacks and the like to take where they wished.

Did any streams get "seeded" more recently? I have no verification but I'm confident the answer would be yes. If not fully seeded, at least "contributed to the gene pool" by interbreeding with wild stock. As I said, there still is SOME reproductive success, and in a few short generations a suitable strain would develop from them. It's just a little harder for them to initially catch on.
 
Chaz's info on "D" is semi correct. Radio tagging study done 95-97 showed fish migration of 30+ miles due to temps and spawning. Most of the bows utilized tribs. Browns were split...some used tribs while others spawned in known gravel areas on main or WB. They study also sampled hatchery fish and wild fish. The wild fish movement was very pronounced and usually triggered by rising temps. The hatchery fish basically held their ground and expired when water temps skyrocketed. The study indicates a MAJORITY of the stocked fish didn't have the instincts to seek colder water and perished or were picked off by anglers. To me, that shows that yes, they are genetically inferior.

As for the origin of the wild bows, stories say 1890 while others say 1910. No definitive true story that I'm aware of. I know that they did originate from McCloud river strain and have now become their own strain that is geneticly different. Unfortunately, they only live to be 4 yrs old on average...occasionally 5 yrs old. If they lived to be 6-8 yrs old, I'd need to buy more backing every season. LOL
 
When considering the survival traits of hatchery trout, you can't think about this in a general way. You have to think about a very specific strain.

You can't assume that PFBC strains of brook trout, rainbow trout and brown trout will have similar survival traits.

And you can't assume that PFBC rainbow strains will be the same as rainbow strains raised in other places.

And you can't assume that the PFBC brook trout now is the same as the PFBC brook trout in the 1800s, soon after wild brook trout were first brought into hatcheries. The genetics change over time.

It's similar with other domestic animals, such as dogs, turkeys, chickens. All dogs are the same species. But there is enormous differences between them. Same with chickens and turkeys. And trout.

 
trout farm raised for what.... 100-150 years?

here's a chart on turkeys from 1989 - 2011 which is a much shorter time frame. I'm pretty sure the same type of modifications have happened to the fish over that 100+ year time frame.

They are live in water, have the same general shape but alot has changed I'm sure.
 

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I think genetic concentration and likewise genetic diversity in animals that reproduce by large broods cannot be compared with animals such as humans and or chickens and turkey which do not.
 
It's often said that the animals that produce large broods, prey animals, usually produce 1 offspring that makes it to adulthood in a lifetime. Given that Jack how is it not comparable?
 
Jack,

Go to south 13th St in Harrisburg. Breeding occurs in mass. You're argument is voided. LOL
 
No comparison was made with humans.

Regarding trout and chickens and turkeys, why should they not be compared? The principles are the same.
 
The hundreds of eggs dropped by a trout are not all of the same make up. In large broods there is a myriad of traits, some of which are adaptive to the environment and others not. Same with the male contribution. Excepting the huge influence of chance, there is enough diversity to allow the specimens most able to adapt and thrive to do so. Traits such as coloration and even shape might be selected over several broods, but I highly doubt that the ability to survive in a natural environment is a trait that can "bred-out" in even hundreds of years.
 
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