Felt or lug sole boots?

[meck1776]

Which do you prefer? Is one safer on rocky streams (Lehigh) than the other? I do walk trails to get to the streams.

 

[afishinado]

meck1776 wrote:
Which do you prefer? Is one safer on rocky streams (Lehigh) than the other? I do walk trails to get to the streams.

I've been wearing Vibram (rubber) soled wading boots with studs for quite a few years now and find them, overall, better than felt soles for safe walking on the bank as well as wading in the water.

Just as a test, I actually wore a felt boot on one foot and a rubber soled one on the other (both had studs). The rubber boot was much better traversing the trails and climbing up and down the bank, especially in mud and wet leaves. In the water I found the felt and rubber to be pretty much the same in traction and safety while wading.

Given that you hike in to your fishing spots, I would choose rubber soles...never saw a felt soled hiking boot! :-?

I will say that rubber soled wading boots are not all the same and many of the newer ones are much better than the older generation soles. Choose one with the newer softer Vibram soles to get good traction on the rocks both in and out of the water.

 

[pcray1231]

Generally, lug is better on the bank (especially mud and snow). Felt is better on rock, including slick rocks in the water.

Felt is worse in terms of invasives. It takes forever to dry. This is the reason for it's relatively recent explosion in popularity. And it's a real consideration. Don't assume, though, that getting lug soles absolves you from all concern, as the uppers still take some time to dry. You have to do the proper maintenance on either type to avoid spreading invasives. It's just a little easier to do on lug soled boots.

For lug, afish is correct that softer rubbers offer better traction than harder rubbers. Vibram is a brand of softer rubber. That said, the drawback is that soft rubbers wear flat much more quickly, especially if you're walking on hard surfaces.

It's pretty simple, really. Soft materials give better traction on hard surfaces. Hard materials give better traction on soft surfaces. Felt is softer than rubber. But within either category, there's a separate spectrum.

I'm currently wearing lug, which were adequate for the fishing I do. I am in the process of deciding what my next pair will be. For the Lehigh, I'd probably lean towards felt, honestly. Studded felt. My traction concerns IN the water would be FAR greater than my traction concerns out of it.

 

[troutpoop]

I totally agree with the above comment.
Rubber with studs. DONE.
The felt picks up all kinds of debris when wet and its like walking after stepping in dog poo. When dry the felt will break down on difficult trails.
The new rubber is very good and to combine it with studs is the best option for traction on slippery rocks.

 

[ryguyfi]

Felt is also getting banned by more and more states and locations. If you ever plan to travel that is also a -1 for felt.

 

[Fly-Swatter]

+1 for rubber with studs. I've use LL Ben rubber with studs for a decade with no traction problems on any surface.

I fact, I just returned a 7 year old pair b/c they were breaking down. A new pair, low/no cost and with a very friendly customer service is pretty nice!

 

[troutbert]

afishinado wrote:

I will say that rubber soled wading boots are not all the same and many of the newer ones are much better than the older generation soles. Choose one with the newer softer Vibram soles to get good traction on the rocks both in and out of the water.

How can you tell which is the good traction type of rubber sole vs the not good type of rubber sole?

Apparently Vibram makes several kinds of rubber soles, but do they break their Vibram soles down into different models?

 

[pcray1231]

How can you tell which is the good traction type of rubber sole vs the not good type of rubber sole?

Much of it is marketing. Thus, generally speaking, word of mouth is better than taking the marketer's word for it.

That said, you can tell a lot just by feeling it. Softer rubber = grippier rubber, but it wears down quicker. Stiffer rubber = less grip, but long lasting. That's a simplistic approach, though. There are indeed compounds which give rubbers better wet grip, or better stability, etc.

As for tread patterns, that's anyone's guess. Like tires, typically more void space will handle mud and moisture better but have less contact patch available on harder surfaces, and wear down quicker.

Apparently Vibram makes several kinds of rubber soles, but do they break their Vibram soles down into different models?

Yes, but it's not something that the typical consumer can get their hands on when they want to know what compound of Vibram is on the shoes they're considering.

A few dozen Vibram compounds are listed here, combined with their supposed strengths.

http://us.vibram.com/technology/compounds/

 

[afishinado]

pcray1231 wrote:

How can you tell which is the good traction type of rubber sole vs the not good type of rubber sole?

Much of it is marketing. Thus, generally speaking, word of mouth is better than taking the marketer's word for it.

That said, you can tell a lot just by feeling it. Softer rubber = grippier rubber, but it wears down quicker. Stiffer rubber = less grip, but long lasting. That's a simplistic approach, though. There are indeed compounds which give rubbers better wet grip, or better stability, etc.

As for tread patterns, that's anyone's guess. Like tires, typically more void space will handle mud and moisture better but have less contact patch available on harder surfaces, and wear down quicker.

Yes, but it's not something that the typical consumer can get their hands on when they want to know what compound of Vibram is on the shoes they're considering.

A few dozen Vibram compounds are listed here, combined with their supposed strengths.

http://us.vibram.com/technology/compounds/

I can honestly say I've never had Vibram soled wading boots returned due to the sole wearing out. The uppers usually give out long before the soles wear out. But I have had quite a few anglers looking to buy replacement soles for their worn down (bald) felt soles.

troutbert wrote:
How can you tell which is the good traction type of rubber sole vs the not good type of rubber sole?


Apparently Vibram makes several kinds of rubber soles, but do they break their Vibram soles down into different models?

As Pat stated above, you can feel the softest of the rubber. Also, if the manufacturer incorporated the more expensive Vibram soles in their wading boots, one would believe they would choose the sole type that would be best suited for wading.

 

[pcray1231]

I can honestly say I've never had Vibram soled wading boots returned due to the sole wearing out.

My Simms G3's are nearly flat after 2 years of very light fishing, probably 20ish outings (I don't fish anywhere near as much as I used to due to life).

I went internet searching and discovered that there are lots and lots of reports of the same, 20-30 outings is the expected lifetime if walking on rock. Simms even acknowledges as such, though defends their choice of materials by saying that other rubbers are too dangerous. From another site, here is a Simms response copied and pasted.

Good Morning,
Thank you for contacting Simms in regards to your Freestone boot and your question on the wear of Streamtread.
While I realize that Streamtread does wear down, I do need to point out a number of points that will hopefully explain to you the hows and whys, as well as providing you a link to a listing of authorized Vibram cobbler shops that we work with in regards to getting Simms wading boots re-soled.
First, the wear issue. . . in order for the rubber compound to actually work in the slick and nasty environment that it lives in, it needs to be of a “hardness” that will grip the rock and provide traction in those challenging conditions. What he have seen is that in order to actually perform, it needs to be soft enough to mold and grab that which it travels over. If Streamtread was built and molded like a hiking boot outsole, it would not work, the hardness of the rubber would not grip the rock and you would slip and slide all over the place. Now, the outsole tread and lugs would certainly last longer, but you may not care that much as you would more than likely be picking yourself up out of the river with some frequency.
Then there is the comparison to felt. A new felt sole is 12mm thick. A brand new Streamtread is 3mm thick. Comparatively, it will outlast felt 2 to 1, but as felt is 4 times as thick to begin with. . . well, it doesn’t take too much math to figure that one out. While there is no perfect solution to any of this, I feel that we offer a great product that works well and is something that can be re-soled. Speaking of which, here is a link to the shops that we recommend our customers to. We do not do this work here. . . but they can certainly help you and I have heard nothing but good reports.
http://www.simmsfishing.com/site/streamtread.html

I actually consider that a very informative and fair response from Simms. i.e., they acknowledge a trade-off between grip and longevity. They acknowledge that they leaned in the direction of grip and performance. They even give a comparison to felt (which, if you do the math, says the typical felt sole will last twice as long). And knowing the shortcoming, they put together a network of cobblers authorized to resole your Simms boots as needed.

The only problem for me is that the nearest cobbler is in Philly, a pretty good drive, and would cost close to as much as a new pair of boots anyway. But that's life today. What else is new. I do agree that, when new, the performance of their rubber is superior to other rubber soles I have tried.

Aside from wading boots, I have been wearing a model of hiking boot almost daily for years now. My most used footwear overall. It just fits me perfect and is comfortable. I'm on my 4th pair, and need to buy a 5th. The prior 3 all failed in the same manner. Soles wore flat, till they wore through and started letting water come up from the bottom. Yep, vibram soles, and fairly soft.... This happens well before the uppers wear out, although it helps that the uppers are leather, and I'm a crazy man about keeping my leather properly cared for (I highly recommend Obenhauf's Heavy Duty LP, if it's of any use to you).

I'll buy a 5th anyway. Everything has trade-offs. Everything wears out. In this case the biggest negative comes from optimizing the most important positive attribute of any boot. Grip.

 

[afishinado]

pcray1231 wrote:

I can honestly say I've never had Vibram soled wading boots returned due to the sole wearing out.

My Simms G3's are nearly flat after 2 years of very light fishing, probably 20ish outings (I don't fish anywhere near as much as I used to due to life).

I went internet searching and discovered that there are lots and lots of reports of the same, 20-30 outings is the expected lifetime if walking on rock. Simms even acknowledges as such, though defends their choice of materials by saying that other rubbers are too dangerous. From another site, here is a Simms response copied and pasted.

Good Morning,
Thank you for contacting Simms in regards to your Freestone boot and your question on the wear of Streamtread.
While I realize that Streamtread does wear down, I do need to point out a number of points that will hopefully explain to you the hows and whys, as well as providing you a link to a listing of authorized Vibram cobbler shops that we work with in regards to getting Simms wading boots re-soled.
First, the wear issue. . . in order for the rubber compound to actually work in the slick and nasty environment that it lives in, it needs to be of a “hardness” that will grip the rock and provide traction in those challenging conditions. What he have seen is that in order to actually perform, it needs to be soft enough to mold and grab that which it travels over. If Streamtread was built and molded like a hiking boot outsole, it would not work, the hardness of the rubber would not grip the rock and you would slip and slide all over the place. Now, the outsole tread and lugs would certainly last longer, but you may not care that much as you would more than likely be picking yourself up out of the river with some frequency.
Then there is the comparison to felt. A new felt sole is 12mm thick. A brand new Streamtread is 3mm thick. Comparatively, it will outlast felt 2 to 1, but as felt is 4 times as thick to begin with. . . well, it doesn’t take too much math to figure that one out. While there is no perfect solution to any of this, I feel that we offer a great product that works well and is something that can be re-soled. Speaking of which, here is a link to the shops that we recommend our customers to. We do not do this work here. . . but they can certainly help you and I have heard nothing but good reports.
http://www.simmsfishing.com/site/streamtread.html

I actually consider that a very informative and fair response from Simms. i.e., they acknowledge a trade-off between grip and longevity. They acknowledge that they leaned in the direction of grip and performance. They even give a comparison to felt (which, if you do the math, says the typical felt sole will last twice as long). And knowing the shortcoming, they put together a network of cobblers authorized to resole your Simms boots as needed.

The only problem for me is that the nearest cobbler is in Philly, a pretty good drive, and would cost close to as much as a new pair of boots anyway. But that's life today. What else is new. I do agree that, when new, the performance of their rubber is superior to other rubber soles I have tried.

Aside from wading boots, I have been wearing a model of hiking boot almost daily for years now. My most used footwear overall. It just fits me perfect and is comfortable. I'm on my 4th pair, and need to buy a 5th. The prior 3 all failed in the same manner. Soles wore flat, till they wore through and started letting water come up from the bottom. Yep, vibram soles, and fairly soft.... This happens well before the uppers wear out, although it helps that the uppers are leather, and I'm a crazy man about keeping my leather properly cared for (I highly recommend Obenhauf's Heavy Duty LP, if it's of any use to you).

I'll buy a 5th anyway. Everything has trade-offs. Everything wears out. In this case the biggest negative comes from optimizing the most important positive attribute of any boot. Grip.

^ good info...and the last line sums it up quite nicely...aint dat the trooth.

 

[pcray1231]

Nonetheless, any way you slice this, from a performance standpoint, felt is superior.

The argument for rubber is invasives. I don't mean to minimize that, it's a valid consideration.

But we shouldn't mislead people by claiming rubber to have superior grip. It doesn't. At best, the softest rubber compounds can APPROACH felt, when new, but they do this by sacrificing longevity, and grip decreases pretty quickly as the tread wears with use.

(And yes, I acknowledge rubber has superior grip on mud and snow. But this is a wading boot. And most anglers main traction concern is wet and slimy rocks, not mud and snow. The first wading boots were indeed rubber. Felt became popular for a reason.)

I will also say as an add-on. Rubber or felt, STUDS both improve traction and reduce wear rates. They are a no brainer, unless you plan to be in a boat.

 

[ryansheehan]

Get yourself some Korkers, they have interchangeable soles. Many of the streams I fish felt is banned but I do switch to it where it's legal and makes sense (not hiking much).

 

[pcray1231]

Korkers are a brilliant concept. I have, though, heard complaints about how well they stay on. Or the opposite, that when you get things all gunked up they become difficult to take off!

I tend to believe that, but am considering them for my next wading boot purchase anyway. Nothing is perfect.

 

[ryansheehan]

Never had any issue getting them off, in fact just the opposite, I just pop open the boa and they slide right off. Every couple of months I open up the boa system and clean out any debris with some water. I have worn korkers boots for about four years now, the only issue I have had was losing studs, which for me is a constant with any studded sole. The most recent boots, the devils canyon I highly recommend.

 

[moon1284]

Has anyone every heard of someone being cited for wearing felt in a non-felt state?

 

[ryansheehan]

I have been checked 3 times in Maryland and watched someone get cited once. $1000 for first offense, $2000 for second, nice money maker for the state. Don't know about the other states.

 

[steveo27]

I have Orvis wading boots with rubber Vibram soles and studs. Love em. Perfect if you do a lot of hiking.

The crappy Cabela's guide wading boots I had previously had Vibram soles on them. The whole boot fell apart save for the soles/tread. They also had Vibram soles on them. Im pretty sold on Vibram soles.

 

[moon1284]

WOW 1k! I will be sure to stay out of MD...

How long before there is a lawsuit from someone who hurt their back bc they were forced to wear rubber instead of felt??

 

[ryansheehan]

moon1284 wrote:
WOW 1k! I will be sure to stay out of MD...

How long before there is a lawsuit from someone who hurt their back bc they were forced to wear rubber instead of felt??

That's pretty funny, when they made the change they actually put that in the literature saying that rubber is just as safe as felt. Definitely a money grab, between the fines and taxes on wading boots.