EPA/ACoE WOTUS ruling

And in Montana, non-navigable waters can be posted just like here. The difference is Montana was very proactive in determining what's navigable and not.
Yes and therein lies a huge difference in that Montana law makes any naturally flowing waterway that can be used for recreation, open to the public so long as they do not trespass to access the waterway itself. There is no caveat or requirement of past or present commercial use, or use as a means of transportation.
 
...and travel on water.

Also you keep referring to the past. The whole point of the phrase is that if you can do it it's navigable. Not if it was once done its navigable.
 
This is one of my favorite and most humorous topic discussions with PA outdoorsman. I hear all the time that “All water should be public.” Then I ask if all woodland should be public property for the hunters. I mean....because the whitetail deer and other game are property of the Commonwealth. I am usually met with blank stares. A stream access law such as Montana would be a complete disaster in PA. To many people, to many anglers, and way too small properties.
 
This is one of my favorite and most humorous topic discussions with PA outdoorsman. I hear all the time that “All water should be public.” Then I ask if all woodland should be public property for the hunters. I mean....because the whitetail deer and other game are property of the Commonwealth. I am usually met with blank stares. A stream access law such as Montana would be a complete disaster in PA. To many people, to many anglers, and way too small properties.
You are assuming that access and usage rights arguments are based on the presence of fish and game. While anglers advocate for public waterway usage in order to pursue their sport, the access rights they argue for are not based on the presence of fish. The arguments is that waterways are public, therefore we should be able to fish them. The argument is not, "There are fish there, so the waterway should be public."
As it pertains to PA, navagibility applies to the most fowl AMD streams and best Class A waters alike. There are no stipulations regarding biological health or worth as fisheries.
 
This is one of my favorite and most humorous topic discussions with PA outdoorsman. I hear all the time that “All water should be public.” Then I ask if all woodland should be public property for the hunters. I mean....because the whitetail deer and other game are property of the Commonwealth. I am usually met with blank stares. A stream access law such as Montana would be a complete disaster in PA. To many people, to many anglers, and way too small properties.
I’m not sure about the thesis that there are too many people, too many anglers, and the properties are too small. There are not many counties with greater population densities than Delaware Co, yet there is little posting along stocked trout streams despite the abundance of private owners. This may in part be because many of the streams have woodland buffer zones, meaning that anglers are not generally fishing along riparian owners’ manacured back yards. There might be other reasons why such a degree of public access would be desirable on some waters but undesirable on other waters, as Lycoflyfisher suggested for the Loyalsock….Likewise for situations where no fisheries would exist. At the same time with so much newly accessible water, anglers would be spread out across many more stream miles. I’m betting it’s never going to happen in Pa anyway so my counterpoint is moot.
 
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You are assuming that access and usage rights arguments are based on the presence of fish and game. While anglers advocate for public waterway usage in order to pursue their sport, the access rights they argue for are not based on the presence of fish. The arguments is that waterways are public, therefore we should be able to fish them. The argument is not, "There are fish there, so the waterway should be public."
As it pertains to PA, navagibility applies to the most fowl AMD streams and best Class A waters alike. There are no stipulations regarding biological health or worth as fisheries.
I thought the argument was that there is pristine land that could do with some litter. #privatizepennsylvania
 
I thought the argument was that there is pristine land that could do with some litter. #privatizepennsylvania

The people who are leaving trash on private land are not paying attention to your purple trees or cute yellow signs.

But hey, post away, I guarantee you the people that might actually pick up a few pieces of that trash will stay the hell away.

#f**kprivatization
 
A popular section of the Frankstown branch got posted late last summer.

Me and several of my friends who like to fish there, have been talking about ways to circumvent the new signs. Which should be fairly easy to do, since it's only posted on one side.
And wade up or down within the high water mark.

Besides us FF's, I've seen a lot of locals spin fishing there too.
I'm thinking there will likely be some confrontations.
With it's navigable status perhaps being challenged.
Stay tuned........
 
A popular section of the Frankstown branch got posted late last summer.

Me and several of my friends who like to fish there, have been talking about ways to circumvent the new signs. Which should be fairly easy to do, since it's only posted on one side.
And wade up or down within the high water mark.

Besides us FF's, I've seen a lot of locals spin fishing there too.
I'm thinking there will likely be some confrontations.
With it's navigable status perhaps being challenged.
Stay tuned........
Where is this posting?
 
I would like to see the government come in and take 20 yds on either side of every stream over a certain size and create a buffer and public access. But I know that won't happen. As for giving things to landowners as a gift for their providing access, that goes on all the time around here. It's called leasing. It's the future of hunting and maybe fishing on private property in PA. We didn't know how good we had it in the 1970s.
 
Where is this posting?
Along the lower part of the river between the Alexandria Pike bridge and Rishel road
Property called Blue Springs Farm.
Went up for sale at auction last year, and the auctioneer actually ended up buying it
 
I would like to see the government come in and take 20 yds on either side of every stream over a certain size and create a buffer and public access. But I know that won't happen. As for giving things to landowners as a gift for their providing access, that goes on all the time around here. It's called leasing. It's the future of hunting and maybe fishing on private property in PA. We didn't know how good we had it in the 1970s.

Sounds great until you realize that creeks and rivers move laterally across the valley. Also where do you start the 20yd mark? Edge of water, top of bank, ordinary high water mark? Very tough to delineate a uniform starting point.

Not to mention many streams have roads, houses and other infrastructure much closer than 20 yards.
 
A popular section of the Frankstown branch got posted late last summer.

Me and several of my friends who like to fish there, have been talking about ways to circumvent the new signs. Which should be fairly easy to do, since it's only posted on one side.
And wade up or down within the high water mark.

Besides us FF's, I've seen a lot of locals spin fishing there too.
I'm thinking there will likely be some confrontations.
With it's navigable status perhaps being challenged.
Stay tuned........

The high water mark doesn't mean $#!+ in PA...

If the landowner doesn't own both sides then you could only legally access the creek from the other side without defiantly trespassing his/her property.

People who do that should be arrested...
 
The Frankstown Branch is almost certainly a navigable river.

On navigable rivers, the public has the right of access between the mean annual high water marks, which roughly corresponds to "top of bank."

The Little Juniata River was declared a navigable river in court. The Frankstown Branch is of similar size and surely has a similar record of being used for commerce.
 
The Frankstown Branch is almost certainly a navigable river.

On navigable rivers, the public has the right of access between the mean annual high water marks, which roughly corresponds to "top of bank."

The Little Juniata River was declared a navigable river in court. The Frankstown Branch is of similar size and surely has a similar record of being used for commerce.
The Frankstown branch would have even more history of being a navigable waterway, because of the main line canal - which ran along much of it back in the day.

Although I wonder if it would have to be proven in court - as was the case with the little j - if any disputes come up
 
The high water mark doesn't mean $#!+ in PA...

If the landowner doesn't own both sides then you could only legally access the creek from the other side without defiantly trespassing his/her property.

People who do that should be arrested...
I disagree.
On the stretch in question here - there is no road on the other side of the river.
And even though it's not posted, it is private farm land.
You should still seek permission before entering from there.

Other than that, the only way to access this stretch by wading, would be to enter from either side of the Alexandria Pike bridge - which is legal access.
And wading down either side within the "high water mark"

O
 
Then take the person to court and see if an outdated, obsolete and unnecessary law from hundreds of years holds up today...

....or stir the pot and make matters worse.
 
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