Dry Fly Styles
- Thread starter bigjohn58
- Start date
pcray1231
Well-known member
Depends on the situation.
In many cases, to match duns, I fish with catskill ties. I like that I can skate them around a bit, the movement very often induces strikes. When an exact dun match is needed, I often choose cut-wing thorax ties, which is a catskill derivative.
I use comparaduns sparingly, but I do use them. Their main advantage is that I think they can represent an emerger, dun, and spinner all at the same time. This works like a charm on easier fish, especially for hatches of the swimming nymph variety like sulphers since the nymphs swim to the surface and transform in the film. Tougher fish, though, it doesn't work so well for ANY of the life stages. And on different types of nymphs (for example, MB's), it doesn't work for the emerger stage since they tend to transform to duns on the bottom. So it depends on the hatch and pickiness of the fish a bit.
On big streams, parachutes fall into the same category as comparaduns. The main disadvantage is that it isn't as good an imitation as a comparadun, but it's more visible to the fisherman. So it requires even dumber fish. But most often I use parachutes on smaller brookie streams because, well, they are less picky, and with the post, they are highly visible to me. A parachute Adams is my go-to small freestoner pattern.
Their one weakness is that in heavier water, they tend to get waterlogged and sink. When that happens, I usually switch to a Wulff type tie.
For picky fish combined with caddis hatches, CDC works well. I just hate the visibility and floatability. I'd prefer an elk hair if I can get away with it. But quite often you can't. CDC also works very well for swimming variety mayfly emergers. Tie the body like a pheasant tail nymph, but on a dry fly hook and skip the wire ribbing. Put a tuft of CDC instead of a wing case. This can be absolutely DEADLY during sulpher hatches, when, more often than not they're actually taking emergers instead of duns.
In many cases, to match duns, I fish with catskill ties. I like that I can skate them around a bit, the movement very often induces strikes. When an exact dun match is needed, I often choose cut-wing thorax ties, which is a catskill derivative.
I use comparaduns sparingly, but I do use them. Their main advantage is that I think they can represent an emerger, dun, and spinner all at the same time. This works like a charm on easier fish, especially for hatches of the swimming nymph variety like sulphers since the nymphs swim to the surface and transform in the film. Tougher fish, though, it doesn't work so well for ANY of the life stages. And on different types of nymphs (for example, MB's), it doesn't work for the emerger stage since they tend to transform to duns on the bottom. So it depends on the hatch and pickiness of the fish a bit.
On big streams, parachutes fall into the same category as comparaduns. The main disadvantage is that it isn't as good an imitation as a comparadun, but it's more visible to the fisherman. So it requires even dumber fish. But most often I use parachutes on smaller brookie streams because, well, they are less picky, and with the post, they are highly visible to me. A parachute Adams is my go-to small freestoner pattern.
Their one weakness is that in heavier water, they tend to get waterlogged and sink. When that happens, I usually switch to a Wulff type tie.
For picky fish combined with caddis hatches, CDC works well. I just hate the visibility and floatability. I'd prefer an elk hair if I can get away with it. But quite often you can't. CDC also works very well for swimming variety mayfly emergers. Tie the body like a pheasant tail nymph, but on a dry fly hook and skip the wire ribbing. Put a tuft of CDC instead of a wing case. This can be absolutely DEADLY during sulpher hatches, when, more often than not they're actually taking emergers instead of duns.
Foxgap239
Active member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2011
- Messages
- 2,101
Sorry Pat but I respectfully disagree with you here. I fish nothing but wild streams like Penn's, BFC, Spring, LJ, etc and have caught tough and big fish on the CD. Some of my PAFF brethen who have fished with me can attest to how well I do with them. I'm not bragging on myself just stating that my experience with the CD's has not been the same as you describe your above.
pcray1231
Well-known member
Well, when they're taking duns, one of my secrets is to MOVE the dry. Cast beyond fish, skitter back to fish's lane, stop about a foot above the strike zone, and bang! That's a big secret to my dry fly success. And CD's don't skitter very well. At least my ties don't!
With emergers, it depends. I think rather than pickiness it's what stage of emergence they're focusing on. Swimming nymphs ride just under the surface before emergence, and a lot of times I think they focus on that. i.e. they're taking floating nymphs, not emergers per se. Floating a pheasant tail nymph works fantastic, unbelievably well actually, but it's real hard to keep them afloat. A tuft of CDC does the trick by keeping the body just below the film, and I've had unbelievable evenings doing just this. A comparadun, though, the body rides in the film itself. I get a lot of refusals, but it's close enough to get them to take a good long look and catch a few (more than if you had a pure dun pattern). But if they're actually taking true emergers, a CD works great.
As for spinners, comparaduns usually work ok, but not quite as well as actual spinners for me. And I can change a fly in about 20 seconds, so when the spinners hit I nearly always just tie a spinner pattern on.
Where a comparadun comes in, for me, is those situations where you have duns, emergers, and spinners all on the water at the same time and you have no clue what the fish want, or else every fish wants something different. In my experience, it works reasonably well for all of the above. And, yes, if you got different fish taking different things, you can catch more fish on an imperfect match of multiple stages rather than a more perfect match of only one of them.
Spring Creek, specifically during sulpher time, seems to be a stream where CD's work great for me on a regular basis.
With emergers, it depends. I think rather than pickiness it's what stage of emergence they're focusing on. Swimming nymphs ride just under the surface before emergence, and a lot of times I think they focus on that. i.e. they're taking floating nymphs, not emergers per se. Floating a pheasant tail nymph works fantastic, unbelievably well actually, but it's real hard to keep them afloat. A tuft of CDC does the trick by keeping the body just below the film, and I've had unbelievable evenings doing just this. A comparadun, though, the body rides in the film itself. I get a lot of refusals, but it's close enough to get them to take a good long look and catch a few (more than if you had a pure dun pattern). But if they're actually taking true emergers, a CD works great.
As for spinners, comparaduns usually work ok, but not quite as well as actual spinners for me. And I can change a fly in about 20 seconds, so when the spinners hit I nearly always just tie a spinner pattern on.
Where a comparadun comes in, for me, is those situations where you have duns, emergers, and spinners all on the water at the same time and you have no clue what the fish want, or else every fish wants something different. In my experience, it works reasonably well for all of the above. And, yes, if you got different fish taking different things, you can catch more fish on an imperfect match of multiple stages rather than a more perfect match of only one of them.
Spring Creek, specifically during sulpher time, seems to be a stream where CD's work great for me on a regular basis.
pcray1231
Well-known member
As a dun, the only problem is the skittering issue. And rather than "dumbness", the key is likely whether the fish are focusing on movement or not.
(disclaimer, you can skitter a CD, just not well or for very long).
(disclaimer, you can skitter a CD, just not well or for very long).
Heritage-Angler
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2006
- Messages
- 3,307
With all due respect for the fans of Catskill style dries, they're actually the worst of the three (cd,parachute,catskill) to immitate the duns.
Reason? The traditional Catskill style flies are tied with a big "clump" of tail fibers. This actually makes the body of the fly appear larger than it really is.
For skittering, yeah the Catskill style is a bit better, but in my experience, just a couple of twitches does the job when the fish are looking for that movement.
Given a choice, I'd take a well tied (key!) comparadun over a parachute, and lastly a traditional Catskill style pattern. What bug I'm immitating plays a big role in that decision as well. I carry all three styles, and let the fish decide. It's a rare day when the comparadun doesn't win out. It's tough to beat a heavily hackled catskill style fly in rough water though.
Durability is also important to me. Fish teeth and hackle don't play well together. I've got comparaduns in my boxes that have caught dozens of fish. My record is 68 fish on a sulphur comparadun (not all on the same day) before it fell apart.
Fox's and my mentor taught us how to tie comparaduns so they last. I've witnessed Fox catching a crazy amount of fish on the same fly. Fox ties one mean comparadun!
Reason? The traditional Catskill style flies are tied with a big "clump" of tail fibers. This actually makes the body of the fly appear larger than it really is.
For skittering, yeah the Catskill style is a bit better, but in my experience, just a couple of twitches does the job when the fish are looking for that movement.
Given a choice, I'd take a well tied (key!) comparadun over a parachute, and lastly a traditional Catskill style pattern. What bug I'm immitating plays a big role in that decision as well. I carry all three styles, and let the fish decide. It's a rare day when the comparadun doesn't win out. It's tough to beat a heavily hackled catskill style fly in rough water though.
Durability is also important to me. Fish teeth and hackle don't play well together. I've got comparaduns in my boxes that have caught dozens of fish. My record is 68 fish on a sulphur comparadun (not all on the same day) before it fell apart.
Fox's and my mentor taught us how to tie comparaduns so they last. I've witnessed Fox catching a crazy amount of fish on the same fly. Fox ties one mean comparadun!
Foxgap239
Active member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2011
- Messages
- 2,101
I believe my FF history is correct when I say I think it is worth pointing out that the CD was designed by Caucci and Nastasi for tough browns on the West Branch of the Delaware River because the Catskill tie wasn't as effective as they wanted. Aside from the Letort, I don't know a stream where the fish are tougher or pickier than the upper D. Now as both Pcray and H-A point out, no fly, including the CD, is going to work in every situation but in my humble opinion, the CD covers more situations in a pinch than the others mentioned above.
pcray1231
Well-known member
Well, fair enough, my comparaduns are NOT generally tied well. My catskills are, because, well, I can't hackle worth a dang so my catskills are store bought (generally FFP). 🙂
But yeah, rather than having a "favorite" style that I consider a "go-to", I'm more the type of guy that tries to figure out exactly what I need before I even start. Do they want it under the film, in the film, on top? Are they looking for movement? Am I gonna have trouble seeing it here?
And then I look in my box for the fly that will do the trick. How well it's tied and what condition it's in is part of that. Catskills may float higher than comparaduns on average. But a heavily dressed, well tied comparadun may float higher than a poorly dressed, beat up catskill. And which is better depends what you're looking to do at the moment.
In the end, we want to make definitive statements like "X is better", because, well, that's human nature. We'll even admit the exceptions, but still start with our "usual" and adjust from there. If our "usual" catches a few we stick with it and have an ok night, and if something else woulda caught more we'll never know.
I do my best to defeat my human nature and let the fish tell me what's up from the get go. First step when you get streamside is to take 5-10 minutes to just observe before even making a plan. Even when things are going ok I think it's important to switch up once in a while, just to see. I'm never satisfied with "well enough", I want to be deadly (I rarely succeed, but it's the goal that matters).
You mentioned in the Douple worm thread about confidence in a fly. I don't like that. We all may be a little better with one thing than another, and that's where it comes from. But I think it becomes a crutch that prevents us from figuring out the ideal for the situation, and learning how to catch fish on other things. All flies have a time and place.
But yeah, rather than having a "favorite" style that I consider a "go-to", I'm more the type of guy that tries to figure out exactly what I need before I even start. Do they want it under the film, in the film, on top? Are they looking for movement? Am I gonna have trouble seeing it here?
And then I look in my box for the fly that will do the trick. How well it's tied and what condition it's in is part of that. Catskills may float higher than comparaduns on average. But a heavily dressed, well tied comparadun may float higher than a poorly dressed, beat up catskill. And which is better depends what you're looking to do at the moment.
In the end, we want to make definitive statements like "X is better", because, well, that's human nature. We'll even admit the exceptions, but still start with our "usual" and adjust from there. If our "usual" catches a few we stick with it and have an ok night, and if something else woulda caught more we'll never know.
I do my best to defeat my human nature and let the fish tell me what's up from the get go. First step when you get streamside is to take 5-10 minutes to just observe before even making a plan. Even when things are going ok I think it's important to switch up once in a while, just to see. I'm never satisfied with "well enough", I want to be deadly (I rarely succeed, but it's the goal that matters).
You mentioned in the Douple worm thread about confidence in a fly. I don't like that. We all may be a little better with one thing than another, and that's where it comes from. But I think it becomes a crutch that prevents us from figuring out the ideal for the situation, and learning how to catch fish on other things. All flies have a time and place.
greenghost
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2008
- Messages
- 1,521
Agree. 95% of the time that's all I use. I buy tiny BWO with deer hair down to 20. They float better. Don't have a tendency to spin my tippet. And do, at times, imitate an emerger.
pete41
Active member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2007
- Messages
- 6,394
what ever happened to the interest in skating spiders that you Pa.. guys introduced more then half century ago? Meant to bring up bigger than normal dry fly feeders?
I used them out west until I got all wet.
My only knock against them was that they tended to be a last resort fly,so while they would get some action when other flies were ignored it wasn't fast enough to keep me from nap time.lol
I used them out west until I got all wet.
My only knock against them was that they tended to be a last resort fly,so while they would get some action when other flies were ignored it wasn't fast enough to keep me from nap time.lol
bigjohn58
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2006
- Messages
- 1,355
I do not even own a comparadun. I fish a lot of Parachutes and catskills. Just my opinion I feel a parachute resembles a fly better then a comparadun. I don't see how the fan of deer hair looks like legs and wings where a parachute with some feather fibers and the parachute looks like legs and the wings. I tie all mine with 2 or 3 seperate microfiber tails and never tie a clump of feather fibers for a tail like a traditional catskill. I also feel like a catskill fly works for certain species that do not ride low on the water film.
Foxgap239
Active member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2011
- Messages
- 2,101
That's the beauty of this sport, it can be many things to many people. You enjoy what you enjoy and others can enjoy what they enjoy. I would agree there are times when I, too, enjoy the battle of wits with a creature with the brain the size of a pea but mostly I just enjoy hooking fish. I applaud your wanting to piece the puzzle together but if a fly I have confidence in does that then I see no reason to worry about a different fly. I never said I would spend all day tossing an inchworm even if I didn't catch fish, I simply said I'd toss it for more time than say an olive nymph before changing flies because it is a confidence fly for me. That doesn't make my method better than yours, it simply what makes it my method.
Foxgap239
Active member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2011
- Messages
- 2,101
For the record, I never said the CD was better than another style of fly. I respectfully (because I have a great deal of respect for Pat and his opinions) disagreed that it wasn't good for "tough" fish. I would go so far as to say, that if two of us fished for the same fish on the same day and I used a CD and you used a Para, that on most days, we could both catch that fish on our preferred fly. That goes to the "confidence" factor. If we have confidence in a fly you could catch 90% of fish taking a dry fly. No matter if you are using a CD, para or catskill. I think it's more about presentation as long as the fly you are using gives the general impression of what they are taking. There are defintiely fish that are "keyed" on something and unless you have that something, they'll refuse it. But in my experience (however limited that sample size might be) most fish on most days are not that keyed.
