salvelinusfontinalis
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no but they wouldnt have to pay it the next year. also the fee is going up next year :roll: oh wait i see what your saying. they never paid....good god!
TimMurphy
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Dear ryan, and everybody else who wants to buy the land,
Why in God's name would you agree to purchase something that you already own? We, you and I, as public citizens of the State of Pennsylvania own all the fish and animals of this State. They are held in trust for us by the Commonwealth.
I ain't paying for something that is already mine to begin with. You can go this on your own, cause I'm not paying to trout fish, period. I seriously can't believe that people actually think this is
a good idea? A club with 100 members is a terrible thing but one with 10,000 is a good thing? BS, it's still a club and it is nothing more than a way to privatize fishing rights and access. It's a bad idea all the way around and I want no part of it. I wouldn't want any part of it even if i had money coming out my wahzoo which I don't. We fought a war to leave England's control. why go back?
Easements are the only way to go. They are a one and done thing and are irrevocable even if the land changes hands because they are written into the deed. No renegotiation, no reconsidering things, you make a decision, take your cash and live with the consequences forever and ever. It's so simple and that is why it will never fly in PA, but that is the only thing I'll sign on for.
Regards,
Tim Murphy
Why in God's name would you agree to purchase something that you already own? We, you and I, as public citizens of the State of Pennsylvania own all the fish and animals of this State. They are held in trust for us by the Commonwealth.
I ain't paying for something that is already mine to begin with. You can go this on your own, cause I'm not paying to trout fish, period. I seriously can't believe that people actually think this is
a good idea? A club with 100 members is a terrible thing but one with 10,000 is a good thing? BS, it's still a club and it is nothing more than a way to privatize fishing rights and access. It's a bad idea all the way around and I want no part of it. I wouldn't want any part of it even if i had money coming out my wahzoo which I don't. We fought a war to leave England's control. why go back?
Easements are the only way to go. They are a one and done thing and are irrevocable even if the land changes hands because they are written into the deed. No renegotiation, no reconsidering things, you make a decision, take your cash and live with the consequences forever and ever. It's so simple and that is why it will never fly in PA, but that is the only thing I'll sign on for.
Regards,
Tim Murphy
OhioOutdoorsman
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The more I think about it the more I think Jack is spot on with this approach.
I'm going to work on developing a plan for a "stream steward" program based on this idea. I've already got ideas to develop/sell "stream steward" hats and holiday cards to raise money and awareness and thank landowners who allow access. Imagine how you would feel as a landowner if you had a recognizable group of people picking up trash on your property, improving the stream, and sending you holiday cards to say thank you. The "stream steward" would raise money, but more importantly set an example of good sportmanship and landowner respect on the stream. A stream steward could be any law-abiding fly, spin, or bait fisherman or any non-fisherman who enjoys streamside habitat.
The hat would be the symbol of the stream steward.
Money would go to the CAP program, with a specific request for the money to go to streams. Stewards would encourage donations to and sell items (flies/lures) streamside to raise money for CAP.
I would buy the hats/cards myself and sell them on ebay with 50-80% proceeds going to CAP through a Missionfish Account. (A service which facilitates donations to non-profits through ebay.)
This program would not:
1) Directly compensate landowners
2) Advocate for regulation changes
3) Engage in legal action against landowners
The "Share Our Streams Stewardship Program" would treat landowners as our ally and would respect their right to post land.
I would need help developin a logo for this project.
Any thoughts?
salvelinusfontinalis
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maybe a logo of two hands shaking with those cat tails on either side to signify wetlands?
i dunno but that is a really good idea ohio and jack. over regulations and other things, this should be our number one priority. i think its time to prove beaver wrong.
i dunno but that is a really good idea ohio and jack. over regulations and other things, this should be our number one priority. i think its time to prove beaver wrong.
sdwlucas
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Nicely put Tim! I can go to a private trout pond and catch as many trout and trophies as I want as long as I pay for them, same thing with SRC. You know being semi-new to the skill and art of fly-fishing I have been tempted to fish the Lil J at SRC but yet I can't convince myself to do it. Why, you may ask because I can go 100 yards below my house and fish for fish that are 20+ inches but are pellet fed. I started fly fishing because I was tired of catching trout on powerbait, spinners or anything and everything else, this was and still is a new concept to me. I am pleased when I go to a stream and catch 1 or 2 fish that are wild or natives in one evening. I could go to the stream behind my house use pellets and catch fish all evening, it's not the same! Honestly there is something special to me about catching a fish that is 4,5, or 6 inches that makes that fish special. If you notice (photos) I took several pictures of such trout, I have caught my share of big trout and nothing compares!
sdwlucas
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Ohio,
That is a great idea!
That is a great idea!
FarmerDave
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Ohio, there are such organizations. Western Pennsylvania Conservancy is one of them. Although their main goal may not be to protect stream access, it is often an added benefit. they have set aside thousands of acres of land for public use, and have some pretty decent trout streams on them. You mentioned one very recently (which i will not repeat because it already gets overharvested IMHO).
ryanh
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Tim,
#1 They are you trout, but access is the issue. The deer and turkeys belong to the state but that does not mean that every yaho with a license has the right to post behind my house and hunt. Porperty owners have rights and one of them is limiting who the let on their ground.
#2 You DO pay to fish already! And you DO belong to a club. So whats a few more dollars for one more stamp that garuntees your access?
I am not in support of a large organized fishing club. I am simply saying that the land owners need some incentive to let us on their land. They also deserve some compensation (be it increased policing by WCO's, or trash clean ups through Growing Greener) so they are not left holding the bag while we reap all of the benefits.
#1 They are you trout, but access is the issue. The deer and turkeys belong to the state but that does not mean that every yaho with a license has the right to post behind my house and hunt. Porperty owners have rights and one of them is limiting who the let on their ground.
#2 You DO pay to fish already! And you DO belong to a club. So whats a few more dollars for one more stamp that garuntees your access?
I am not in support of a large organized fishing club. I am simply saying that the land owners need some incentive to let us on their land. They also deserve some compensation (be it increased policing by WCO's, or trash clean ups through Growing Greener) so they are not left holding the bag while we reap all of the benefits.
OhioOutdoorsman
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Dave and all,
Sorry if I spilled too many beans.
I think that this Share Our Streams program would be different than the WPC or TU because:
1) It would be about fishing access first, and conservation second rather than "Take care or the fish and the fishing will follow"
2) It would focus on landowner/fisherman relations and provide an avenue for landowners to express concerns and have the "stream stewards" attempt make it right - i.e. picking up litter or repairing a fence that inconsiderate anglers damaged. I also think it would be OK for stewards to lobby for landowner benefits.....i.e. tax breaks for their "fishing easements".
I do agree with Tom that direct compensation could make things worse, and besides its a divisive issue and the program should only be about things that 90% of us agree about. Otherwise we'll just bicker and not take any action and make DB right.
Lets show DB what true sportsmanship is!
I've already contacted LIDS (a hat store) who is able to make custom hats. Its workable.
Bill Z
Sorry if I spilled too many beans.
I think that this Share Our Streams program would be different than the WPC or TU because:
1) It would be about fishing access first, and conservation second rather than "Take care or the fish and the fishing will follow"
2) It would focus on landowner/fisherman relations and provide an avenue for landowners to express concerns and have the "stream stewards" attempt make it right - i.e. picking up litter or repairing a fence that inconsiderate anglers damaged. I also think it would be OK for stewards to lobby for landowner benefits.....i.e. tax breaks for their "fishing easements".
I do agree with Tom that direct compensation could make things worse, and besides its a divisive issue and the program should only be about things that 90% of us agree about. Otherwise we'll just bicker and not take any action and make DB right.
Lets show DB what true sportsmanship is!
I've already contacted LIDS (a hat store) who is able to make custom hats. Its workable.
Bill Z
salvelinusfontinalis
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ohio,
iam really so on this one with you! this is really the kind of program and group that we really need. you are so far away from me that its not like i could help ya side by side. but! im here in the sepa region and it could start over hear also. i could see fund raising at local carnivals also. either in raffle tickets, baked goods(sal makes a mean cheesecake), amish quilts( i already have someone willing to knit a few) anything! that is what is great about this whole thing. there is a million way to raise money fairly cheaply and it could insure future parcels of land for the fishing community. here in mount joy we have a carnival and the donegal fish conservation association always shows up. and some others the local tu also shows up. i imagine those two wouldnt mind working side by side a group like this to get future projects. imagine we secure the land and work with tu to restore it!
let me know what you think ohio, for iam out the door to go fish some pvt land......land that one day could be open due to an orginazation just like this! :-D
iam really so on this one with you! this is really the kind of program and group that we really need. you are so far away from me that its not like i could help ya side by side. but! im here in the sepa region and it could start over hear also. i could see fund raising at local carnivals also. either in raffle tickets, baked goods(sal makes a mean cheesecake), amish quilts( i already have someone willing to knit a few) anything! that is what is great about this whole thing. there is a million way to raise money fairly cheaply and it could insure future parcels of land for the fishing community. here in mount joy we have a carnival and the donegal fish conservation association always shows up. and some others the local tu also shows up. i imagine those two wouldnt mind working side by side a group like this to get future projects. imagine we secure the land and work with tu to restore it!
let me know what you think ohio, for iam out the door to go fish some pvt land......land that one day could be open due to an orginazation just like this! :-D
OhioOutdoorsman
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The concept would be simple and very much complimentary to local TUs and other conservation groups.
Here's my vision for the typical steward on the stream:
He'd have three things he/she got in his/her "stream steward" pack:
1) A hat to publicize the cause and otherwise look official to other fisherman and more importatly to landowners who would come to recognize him or her as someone they could approach and trust help address their concerns.
2) A small trash bag (a plastic grocery bag would be perfect), so that he/she could pick up trash on the river as he/she fishes or walks back from fishing.
3) A small ziploc bag that would contain a form:
One side of the form would be the CAP donation form, which he/she would approach other fisherman and users of the stream to let them know about the program and encourage donations.
The other side would explain the stream steward program, a stream steward code of conduct, and how to become a stream steward and would have a spot for the steward to write down his/her name and phone number to give to land owners as a contact.
The steward would be responsible for reproducing this form.
I think this program would be simple and highly effective.
Here's my vision for the typical steward on the stream:
He'd have three things he/she got in his/her "stream steward" pack:
1) A hat to publicize the cause and otherwise look official to other fisherman and more importatly to landowners who would come to recognize him or her as someone they could approach and trust help address their concerns.
2) A small trash bag (a plastic grocery bag would be perfect), so that he/she could pick up trash on the river as he/she fishes or walks back from fishing.
3) A small ziploc bag that would contain a form:
One side of the form would be the CAP donation form, which he/she would approach other fisherman and users of the stream to let them know about the program and encourage donations.
The other side would explain the stream steward program, a stream steward code of conduct, and how to become a stream steward and would have a spot for the steward to write down his/her name and phone number to give to land owners as a contact.
The steward would be responsible for reproducing this form.
I think this program would be simple and highly effective.
B
bede
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Ohio Outdoorsman,
Looks like 4 pages of a sell out magazine that only cares about advertising, not the issues, was all it took to sway you.
Your first two arguements for what Beaver is doing are solutions to a problem caused by beaver and the like.
1. Access, he limits it, big time, unless you are very wealthy.
2. The focus on stocked trout. Beaver stocks over wild trout, the huge rainbows in his waters were not put there by Jesus, but rather a man who tries to act like him, Donald Beaver.
He stocks over wild fish and falsely perpetuates the idea that low pressure are neccessary to have such big fish and populations. Not true, Penns and Spring creek get hammered, especially Spring, and they are full of fish. If we threw 20" stockies in there there would be more photo ops too.
He is not a steward to our sport, our waters or our ethics. He is a business man and a damned good one, albeit at the expense of 99% or us.
Looks like 4 pages of a sell out magazine that only cares about advertising, not the issues, was all it took to sway you.
Your first two arguements for what Beaver is doing are solutions to a problem caused by beaver and the like.
1. Access, he limits it, big time, unless you are very wealthy.
2. The focus on stocked trout. Beaver stocks over wild trout, the huge rainbows in his waters were not put there by Jesus, but rather a man who tries to act like him, Donald Beaver.
He stocks over wild fish and falsely perpetuates the idea that low pressure are neccessary to have such big fish and populations. Not true, Penns and Spring creek get hammered, especially Spring, and they are full of fish. If we threw 20" stockies in there there would be more photo ops too.
He is not a steward to our sport, our waters or our ethics. He is a business man and a damned good one, albeit at the expense of 99% or us.
littlejuniata
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Time to do something and FAST, the lumber companys that own thousands of acres of forests and streams are getting out of the lumber business and selling land because foriegn countrys (Brazil) can produce lumber and ship it here at a price that undercuts our lumber company's profit, therefore making it more profitable to market their land rather than their lumber.
OhioOutdoorsman
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Bede, I think DB is the worst. If he were raising money for public access instead of for stocking over wild trout and limiting access to only the wealthy for his own personal gain he would be a good sportsman. It is his goals, not his methods that are necessarily flawed.
Maybe we should encourage thos lumber companies to donate riparian buffer zones to the CAP. A few "stream stewards" taking a group of execs for a day of fly fishing as a "retreat" on their water might help convince them to do this. It would help them to have a local organization give them some good press as they pull out, also.......
Maybe we should encourage thos lumber companies to donate riparian buffer zones to the CAP. A few "stream stewards" taking a group of execs for a day of fly fishing as a "retreat" on their water might help convince them to do this. It would help them to have a local organization give them some good press as they pull out, also.......
littlejuniata
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Donnys dream, he is the ultimate Central Pa Wannabe, could this be his goal? http://travel2.nytimes.com/2006/02/10/realestate/10Haven.html?fta=y Buy some land near good fishing? http://realestate.nytimes.com/sales/List_Listings.asp
FarmerDave
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No sweat Bill. That stream is hardly secret. It is however a stream where the population is definitely cropped for quite a ways.
I agree that your idea is different. mine was a response to an early message, and I had not read the subsequent ones.
littlejuniata
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You pay the theater guy to go to the movies, why not pay the landowner to fish? Is there a mental block, stigma, rebellion? So what is it? http://www.wisegeek.com/why-are-movie-tickets-so-expensive.htm
OhioOutdoorsman
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There is a strech of the clear fork of the mohican here in ohio on a campground's land that charges $2 for you to park your car and fish their land.
While this is paying the landowner, it is a far cry from DB. DB restricts asccess, this landowner does not. I have no problem with paying a reasonable "movie ticket" type fee to park my car.
While this is paying the landowner, it is a far cry from DB. DB restricts asccess, this landowner does not. I have no problem with paying a reasonable "movie ticket" type fee to park my car.
wingshot
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I have not posted on here for a while but instead chose to lurk for a while to absorb the wealth of knowledge offered on this forum. I just wanted to chime in to say that I agree with Tim Murphy as it relates to any kind of "purchased access", it is a concept doomed for failure. I too read the F&S article along with many other blurbs and letters written throughout the flyfishing community and I don't buy the "I just want to protect the fishery" B.S. I would encourage all of you to take a look at what the State of Michigan has done via the DNR as it relates to fishing access, IMHO they have it nailed, access is gained via easment on many prime King, Steelhead and trout fisheries and is tresspassing regulations are strictly enforced as well as tackle restrictions and any creel limits etc. How do they manage this and keep their licsense fees reasonable? Simple, they utilize the sportsman, business owners, community groups, scouting etc. They also have the manpower and utilize local law enforcement to assist in keeping people on there toes. With my limited experience fishing up there I noticed a much different outlook on conservation and water quality concerns than I do here in PA. It seems that the overall quality of the outdoor/fishing experience is paramout to how many trout can I stuff in my freezer before the white trucks stop dumping fish in the crik. Litter is not nearly as prevelent even though there are still those that are slobs and just don't care but again the community pitches in and do several cleanups on miles and miles of prime water and they do it with a smile on their face.
Sorry for the rant,
J.A.
Sorry for the rant,
J.A.
CaptMatt
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A while ago Tred Barta did a show about public land and property postings. We went off on the idea of posting waterways and access points. I can’t blame somebody for trying to make a dollar. Hell I make money from fishing. But buying a ton of land for private clubs? I just don’t know the answer to that one. There are a ton of big wigs who love the persona of fly fishing bit lack the skill to do well at it. So they pay obscene amounts of money to have tame fish as long as their leg at there disposal any time they want. Those people are why these clubs work. People like us are being deprived great fishing because of it. As far as paying to fish? I charter many people who pay to fish but that’s their choice. Being FORCED to pay is unreal but what can you do but not fish there? Money makes the world go round and it’s a damb shame. Unless you have that much money to match it, how can you stop it by complaining?
