Clarks Creek fly sction

[joebamboo]

You are right, there plenty of other waters to fish. Leave the FFO streams alone.

 

[Peyton]

I caught a wild tiger trout out of there, the prettiest fish I have ever seen. pictures soon to come

 

[albud1962]

As of three yrs ago there had been a moratorium on the establishment of new FFO waters for nearly two decades. I assume it’s still in effect and for good reasons. As stated a number of times in the past FFO is a remnant of the past when there was little to no scientific knowledge of the low mortality rates also associated with artificial lure fishing. Now we even know that low mortality rates can be achieved with tight line bait fishing. FFO amounts to a social program, as artificial lure (spinning) has limited additional biological impact and it occurs to an extent that is most likely imperceptible to electrofishers, let alone anglers using a whippy-stick.

As for DHALO areas, they have been the alternative to stocked FFO’s and where they had been established had always, at least during my tenure with the PFBC, been at the discretion of the AFM’s based on a number of considerations, not the least of which had been water temps in June and early July, social and access factors, stream size and seasonal flow, habitat for holding stocked fish throughout the spring, proximity of other special reg waters, and “taking” of existing stocked waters for DH purposes, etc. In my case there were stream sections where I sought to establish additional DH management and ultimately one or more conditions proved to be unfavorable.

You may recall that the anglers in the past shot down the idea of opening DH Areas to harvest around June 1. I favored that as an earlier harvest date would have made more waters available for DH consideration because water temps would have been cooler during the earlier allowable harvest period than the period following June 15. While few anglers harvest DH fish, the option is still available for those desiring to do so and cool temps encourage the trout to take lures/flies; warm water temps do not. The idea of DH areas is NOT to push trout to the point that temperature stress is substantial by June 15 such that it inhibits the catching of trout. The original DH areas were selected in streams where water temps were cool until at least July 1, meaning there was at least a 2 week period during which a number of trout could potentially be harvested rather than die due to temperature stress.

A major advantage of these stocked special reg waters has always been the ability to fish them during the traditionally closed late winter/early spring season. With the updated regs regarding fishing outside of stocked trout sections, the knowledge of trout residency results, and the number of wild streams listed, anglers are now equipped to C&R fish a lot more waters during the closed season than ever before. Additionally, with so many anglers practicing C&R fishing in regular stocked trout sections for over a decade now, the argument that these sections are fished out is so much weaker than when the statewide DH program was first established. Even when I fly fish the Tulpehocken I almost never fish the DH area because the fishing is quite good outside of the DH area and I never fish the FFO area on Kettle Ck.

Likewise, I regularly fly fish one of the most, if not the most heavily fished regular stocked trout section known to exist in the state based on angler use and harvest studies, that being the urban section of Jordan Ck, Lehigh Co. Despite this, fly fishing is quite good throughout the spring and up until sometime in late May or early June when the water warms too much.

As for conflicts with bait or lure anglers, I perhaps have one person at most move close to me per year and that’s usually in a narrow stretch where they might take up a position directly across from me very early in the season when less serious anglers may be more common. Big deal…there’s plenty of other water to fish despite the high angler use. This whole idea that I have heard at times that fly anglers need to fish only with other fly anglers who understand the associated etiquette is oh so weak in my considerable experience in waters that most fly anglers would shun.

Mike I appreciate your experiences on Jordan Creek though mine have been quite different. I used to fish it regularly but the fishing there has declined at least in the areas I usually hit. I guess I need to seek out new spots to fish it.

While the FFO’s may not be a destination for more experienced anglers, they are a place where beginner fly fishers have a good chance of landing a fish on a fly rod. I engage new fly anglers when ever I see them or offer assistance if requested. This was done for me when I started fly fishing back in 2002. In contrast, my life angling experience while fishing the approved trout waters has often been competitive if not outright combative. I guess this might make me a snob but i generally find fellow flyfishers often willing to help and courteous on the water as opposed to spin fishermen.


Tight line angling techniques when used properly may limit fish mortality but I don’t believe the majority of these anglers are proficient or knowledgeable in properly hooking and releasing fish after caught in this manner. Last year I walked through a pool which contained 6 dying trout which were gut hooked with power bait and released back into the water. Using bait you are always going to have a few fish swallow the hook, no matter how well you manage your line.These fish don’t make it based on my observation. I seldom deep hook a fish while fly fishing, so it would seem reasonable to assume there is a lesser mortality caused by fly fishing therefore potentially more fish in a fly fishing only section.


In many respects Pennsylvania is the birthplace of fly fishing and it still figures prominently in the northeast as a fly fishing destination . I don’t really buy into the social segregation claims levied against fly fishing. I was a spin fisherman before coming to fly fishing. I still like to spin fish for trout but I also appreciate and much enjoy my time fly fishing. I think there is a general lack of respect of the fly fishing tradition and appreciation of what it takes to be an accomplished flyfisher. We as a society have trended to taking the easy way out in all aspects of our lives. Fly fishing doesnt allow this and requires us and challenges us to develop skills in order to catch fish. I dont understand why there would be a moratorium on creating new opportunities or not promoting and celebrating this style of fishing. I dont think of a FFO as being exclusionary but rather a place for me to become a better fisherman. It’s disappointing that our resource managers lack the courage and vision in adding new fly fishing venues to the commonwealth in light of restoration efforts , supported and advocated by fly fishers which are bringing back a number of our traditional cold water fisheries. Many of us are not requesting converting all the streams in Pennsylvania to catch and release fly fishing but do feel the number of these stream segments are under represented and could be increased while not impacting the vast length of stream sections open to general fishing. Fishing methods are often not compatible. Chucking a lead sinker next to the guy or gal trying to catch a fish on a dry fly is not going to lead to a favorable exchange or an invitation for a beer after a long day of fishing. Egg sinkers make a lot of noise.

 

[trout624]

I have been following this thread as Clarks was near and dear to me while I attended Widener a couple mountains over near Linglestown. I had a meeting today in Linglestown and decided to drop in at the FFO to see what it looked like. It had been about 2 years since I last visited and the amount of downed trees I saw today was incredible. It's unreal what the Woolly Adelgid has done.

I ran into a gentleman walking with his dogs on the stream and had a nice chat. We talked about a very loud white noise-like sound I heard all the way back at where I was parked and the gent told me that it was the Leopard Frogs mating. I ventured to the backwater where they were and it was like standing in the middle of a forest filled with Cicadas in the height of the Cicada hatch.

I parked about mid-way through the FFO section and tightlined the only pool where I saw fish, which, to my surprise were rising sporadically to little black stone flies. I fished a micro bugger and caught 3 or 4 brookie stockers and what I believe to be a smaller wild brownie, along with a bunch of fall fish. Water temp was about 40 degrees and it was 65 and sunny.

Clarks surely isn't what it used to be a decade ago for me, but it sure is a beautiful stream and valley nonetheless. Overall, I was pleasantly surprised to see and catch any trout. I'm attaching a few photos to give an update on the stream condition. As noted in this thread, tons of downed hemlocks and a lot of sunshine coming through that never would've previously been on the stream. I'd imagine that overtime the temps will raise significantly on the stream as a result, at least in areas with cleared out trees. Would be great to get some of the trees cleared out, but without any support from the state or approved volunteer groups, I think it's going to be a decade or so until Clarks has a chance to return to its glory.

 

[krayfish2]

If anyone had questions as to how effed up the fly section is...the photos above sum it up. What was a riff is now a lake, it's been silted and flows rerouted. Even if you found it attractive / productive, a gust of wind could put an 80' tree right on your noggin. Not worth a 9" trout to me. Wish it could be rehabbed or cleaned up enough to be useable again.

 

[krayfish2]

I was down on my computer and I found these photos of the fly section from about 15 years ago. Doesn't look anything like this now.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

In my experience, the fish are there in superb numbers and there are less fisherman too.

 

[wbranch]

Such good looking water. I used to love going there on a week day and catching a dozen beautiful brookies. Many of them had really good color.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I should say though that I did prefer it as it was before. The fish are there and there are less fisherman but it is a pain to fish.

So much so I don't go often.

I do wonder what this will do to the fish population and size structure.
If the added habitat and less pressure will make for anything tremendous.

 

[TimMurphy]

I should say though that I did prefer it as it was before. The fish are there and there are less fisherman but it is a pain to fish.

So much so I don't go often.

I do wonder what this will do to the fish population and size structure.
If the added habitat and less pressure will make for anything tremendous.

Dear fenwick,

In the early 2000's Clarks was loaded with wild fish, both brook and brown trout. I probably fished it 150 times or more from October of 2001 until the first big flood of June 2004. Back then it was nothing to fish a hundred-yard stretch of the stream and catch 20 plus fish on crickets or ants by carefully working the overhangs along the banks. The fish ranged in size from 4" to 18". Clearly, most if not all of the smaller fish were wild.

I would go as far to say that the silting in of large stretches of the stream has had negative effects on spawning. There simply isn't the amount of clean gravel needed for trout to spawn effectively as there once was.

The logjams may enable fish to hide and survive, but I also think the silting in may have affected the insect life as well. I'm not aware of many nymphs that burrow in silt as compared to crawl under rocks and debris on the stream bottom.

I may take one last look around Clarks this spring for old times' sake. My expectations will remain low.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Dear fenwick,

In the early 2000's Clarks was loaded with wild fish, both brook and brown trout. I probably fished it 150 times or more from October of 2001 until the first big flood of June 2004. Back then it was nothing to fish a hundred-yard stretch of the stream and catch 20 plus fish on crickets or ants by carefully working the overhangs along the banks. The fish ranged in size from 4" to 18". Clearly, most if not all of the smaller fish were wild.

I would go as far to say that the silting in of large stretches of the stream has had negative effects on spawning. There simply isn't the amount of clean gravel needed for trout to spawn effectively as there once was.

The logjams may enable fish to hide and survive, but I also think the silting in may have affected the insect live as well. I'm not aware of many nymphs that burrow in silt as compared to crawl under rocks and debris on the stream bottom.

I may take one last look around Clarks this spring for old times' sake. My expectations will remain low.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

No doubt.
I would be curious to see comparable electro fishing data.

Is it worse or is it better?

It would be interesting

 

[Wild_Trouter]

I was down on my computer and I found these photos of the fly section from about 15 years ago. Doesn't look anything like this now.

Kray...I remember those days well when it was a pleasure to fish the place. Could be amazing again but too many are satisfied with status quo. I could think of worse things the Commonwealth could waste money on.

 

[Fish Sticks]

With clarks being a cold tailwater that happens to be completely forested there is one undeniable impairment holding that stream back.

Silt?
Big spring, falling springs, and many other spring creeks that support native brook trout are just as silty in clarks in many places. Similarly to clarks in some places clean gravel is interspersed behind and between vegetation. Bob carline has shown also that its more about the upwelling rate of ground water rather than sediment particle size. The substrate in this study might be qualified as “silt” visually by many anglers. “45% of the substrate, by weight, averaged less than 2 mm in diameter.”

Alot of those downed trees seem to have downwelling in-front of them and upwelling from the hyporheic behind them as suggested by various types of cress looking vegetation. There also happens to be exposed fine gravel in these areas behind or beneath the downed trees.

Features of Successful Spawning Site Development for Brook Trout in Wisconsin Ponds

Lack of spawning areas limits standing crops of brook trout (Salvelinus fontinalis) in many small, spring-fed ponds in northern Wisconsin. A new method for developing spawning areas includes measu...

www.tandfonline.com

Could there be more ideal substrate conditions? Probably


Does anyone else wonder why the completely forested ice cold tail water originating from Harrisburg’s drinking water supply thats smack dab in the wilderness has abysmal wild trout numbers?……but still supports wild native brook that have an overblown image of being impossibly fastidious?

Welllll…..

The brook trout are very possible sabotaged genetically through introgression from the TONS of harchery brook trout stocked there.

Stocked invasive trout species galore

PFBC stocks it

Dauphin county anglers stocks it

Theres a hatchery on it for christs sake, fish coming from the coop.

Happen to know Its privately stocked on several properties for private events

Think there is an additional hatchery that slings pellet heads in there from leb co as well.

Santa clause, puxatawny phill, and lachupacabra stock it

I can believe it fished better when casting was easy and there were big riffly areas/ pools for floating dries through. I am sure catch rates were higher without all the wood and with the HWA the stream recruiting wood at an unatural rate. But given all that its still a completely forested cold tailwater with excellent water quality. If crap holes like trindle spring run and spring creek in Harrisburg can be class A (or dang near it id guess in springs case)with just as much silt could it be the the stream itself is not the rate limiting step? Could putting 11-14” fat ravenous and aggressive invasive species by the tens of thousands into a small to medium sized creek have anything to do with it?

2022

 

[TimMurphy]

With clarks being a cold tailwater that happens to be completely forested there is one undeniable impairment holding that stream back.

Silt?
Big spring, falling springs, and many other spring creeks that support native brook trout are just as silty in clarks in many places. Similarly to clarks in some places clean gravel is interspersed behind and between vegetation. Bob carline has shown also that its more about the upwelling rate of ground water rather than sediment particle size. The substrate in this study might be qualified as “silt” visually by many anglers. “45% of the substrate, by weight, averaged less than 2 mm in diameter.”

Alot of those downed trees seem to have downwelling in-front of them and upwelling from the hyporheic behind them as suggested by various types of cress looking vegetation. There also happens to be exposed fine gravel in these areas behind or beneath the downed trees.

Features of Successful Spawning Site Development for Brook Trout in Wisconsin Ponds

Lack of spawning areas limits standing crops of brook trout (Salvelinus fontinalis) in many small, spring-fed ponds in northern Wisconsin. A new method for developing spawning areas includes measu...

www.tandfonline.com

Could there be more ideal substrate conditions? Probably


Does anyone else wonder why the completely forested ice cold tail water originating from Harrisburg’s drinking water supply thats smack dab in the wilderness has abysmal wild trout numbers?……but still supports wild native brook that have an overblown image of being impossibly fastidious?

Welllll…..

The brook trout are very possible sabotaged genetically through introgression from the TONS of harchery brook trout stocked there.

Stocked invasive trout species galore

PFBC stocks it

Dauphin county anglers stocks it

Theres a hatchery on it for christs sake, fish coming from the coop.

Happen to know Its privately stocked on several properties for private events

Think there is an additional hatchery that slings pellet heads in there from leb co as well.

Santa clause, puxatawny phill, and lachupacabra stock it

I can believe it fished better when casting was easy and there were big riffly areas/ pools for floating dries through. I am sure catch rates were higher without all the wood and with the HWA the stream recruiting wood at an unatural rate. But given all that its still a completely forested cold tailwater with excellent water quality. If crap holes like trindle spring run and spring creek in Harrisburg can be class A (or dang near it id guess in springs case)with just as much silt could it be the the stream itself is not the rate limiting step? Could putting 11-14” fat ravenous and aggressive invasive species by the tens of thousands into a small to medium sized creek have anything to do with it?
View attachment 1641228677View attachment 1641228678View attachment 1641228679


2022

Dear fishsticks,

Can you possibly drop your agenda just one time? Maybe let the people that know more about the crick than you have a little session?

The crick is now useless, even for brookies.

I guess the non-native invaders, like you and I, made that a reality?

In the meantime, before the planet sloughs us off like flies on a cow's tail, can you please stop jumping every single thread?

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[Fish Sticks]

Dear fishsticks,

Can you possibly drop your agenda just one time? Maybe let the people that know more about the crick than you have a little session?

The crick is now useless, even for brookies.

I guess the non-native invaders, like you and I, made that a reality?

In the meantime, before the planet sloughs us off like flies on a cow's tail, can you please stop jumping every single thread?

Regards,

Tim Murphy

i responded about the topic of the thread and you just didn’t get an answer you were comfortable with. The truth is other forms of impairments like water temps, AMD, sedimentation, ect. come up just as much but don’t garner the wanna be moderators that biotic impairments do. We were talking about wild trout numbers on clarks after someone called the AFM and showed low numbers at two sample sites. People started talking about why. The impairment is relevant like it or not.

And on a side note, beyond the relevance to clarks, i love how its “my agenda.” Yea I came up with all of it Tim. All FS original content. The people who make recommendations on how to manage out water ways don’t know as much about the “crik” as you either i guess.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Dear fishsticks,

Can you possibly drop your agenda just one time? Maybe let the people that know more about the crick than you have a little session?

The crick is now useless, even for brookies.

I guess the non-native invaders, like you and I, made that a reality?

In the meantime, before the planet sloughs us off like flies on a cow's tail, can you please stop jumping every single thread?

Regards,

Tim Murphy

I asked penn state extension’s danielle rae LWD expert and tyler neimond at PFBC who is their habitat guy about clarks in 2020, they said leave the wood in the creek and it’s beneficial.

can you respond with something intellectual besides attacks or “its ruined” or the wood is bad or “ you don’t know about the crik”?

 

[troutbert]

We were talking about wild trout numbers on clarks after someone called the AFM and showed low numbers at two sample sites. People started talking about why. The impairment is relevant like it or not.

Is survey information available? It would be interesting to know how many wild trout are in there. And how the wild trout population compares between those sections in the special regs areas where the stream is very wide and mostly shallow, and the sections further upstream where the stream has a more normal appearance.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Is survey information available? It would be interesting to know how many wild trout are in there. And how the wild trout population compares between those sections in the special regs areas where the stream is very wide and mostly shallow, and the sections further upstream where the stream has a more normal appearance.

i don’t have it but I have recently learned RTK request process is super easy. Takes a little while but I doubt they would charge for collection of surveys of clarks over the years especially if you select electronic copy. If i get time i might do it. Its honestly easier than trying to reach the biologist, they always get back to you but their busy.

 

[TimMurphy]

I asked penn state extension’s danielle rae LWD expert and tyler neimond at PFBC who is their habitat guy about clarks in 2020, they said leave the wood in the creek and it’s beneficial.

can you respond with something intellectual besides attacks or “its ruined” or the wood is bad or “ you don’t know about the crik”?

Dear fishsticks,

You quote "experts" all the time.

How far has that gotten you, outside of your mind? Think about who you talk to, and how. Most will blow you off, but you might get a convert. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then.

Some people convey thoughts. Constantly annoying people is not conducive to conveyance. But you know that already, or at least should?

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

 

[Fish Sticks]

Dear fishsticks,

You quote "experts" all the time.

How far has that gotten you, outside of your mind? Think about who you talk to, and how. Most will blow you off, but you might get a convert. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then.

Some people convey thoughts. Constantly annoying people is not conducive to conveyance. But you know that already, or at least should?

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂

Dear fishsticks,

Can you possibly drop your agenda just one time? Maybe let the people that know more about the crick than you have a little session?

The crick is now useless, even for brookies.

I guess the non-native invaders, like you and I, made that a reality?

In the meantime, before the planet sloughs us off like flies on a cow's tail, can you please stop jumping every single thread?

Regards,

Tim Murphy

^
“Conveying Thoughts”

My description of others works relevant to the topic at hand apparently not conveying thoughts

Again feel free to respond with anything but (not relevant to the OP’s post) insults while ironically criticizing my views on the topic