Clark(s) Creek - Streams being considered for wild trout designation (and Class A status)

[C_kreek17]

Can someone walk me through the process of wild trout stream designation and proposal? I was looking over the document in the link below and found something that piqued my interest. The ever divisive Clark Creek, on page 4 under Dauphin County, is being considered for class A status. I know it’s not proposed but does this mean there is some hope that it’ll one day get class A protections? Or am I reading this wrong?

I know lots of people don’t like this stream because “it’s not like it used to be”, but as one of the first creeks I learned how to fly fish on it holds a special place in my heart. I would love to see the stocking decrease/stop there and let the wild trout do their thing, but is it really feasible? I’d imagine it would grow some nice wild fish.

Just wanted to run it by the more knowledgeable folks of the community. I assume class A proposal would probably meet some fierce negative public comment from the hatchery on the creek and some of the local. Also I know Clark’s has its issues, but I’m not really looking to debate the deadfall in the fly only section.

https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/PennsylvaniaFishes/Trout/Documents/WildTroutStreamsBeingConsidered.pdf

 

[Bamboozle]

First things first...

You should contact Area Fisheries Management for that area:

Area 7
195 Lebo Road
Carlisle, PA 17013-9362
Telephone: (717) 486-3157

Ask WHICH section(s) are under consideration for Class A designations as I have a hard time believing the entire creek is under consideration.

FWIW - The coordinates given are for the mouth of the stream which is standard OP for the PFBC when "naming" a stream.

Clarks Creek has 5 Sections. All but Section 1 are stocked by the PFBC. Sections 1 & 2 are above Dehart Reservoir, Sections 3 & 5 are "Stocked Trout Waters" while Section 4 is "Catch & Release Fly Fishing Only."

Section 4 is the Section that seems to be the subject of most of the angst however I spoke to the Area 7 Fisheries Manager a year or so ago and he told me that the most recent survey of that section showed that it was hardly teeming with wild fish.

If you call, post your findings!

 

[Fish Sticks]

Bamboozled gives some good advice there and I will say I thought like you did for a long time that the class A status guaranteed a class A stream gets the respect it deserves without fowling it with stocked fish and putting the stream on birth control.

However, if you do confirm its class A all that has to happen is a PA fish and Boat archaeologist digs up a Donald duck fishing rod, a crush plastic worm container and some power bait carbon dated back to 2017 and it gets designated a Unesco World Cultural heritage site right up there with the great pyramids and its mandated trout stocking must continue for the good of the realm.

Thats what unfortunately happened on salt run in cameron county recently. Class A mixed brook brown and stocking exceptions made because of a rodeo. I assume its bot just the rodeo and anyone can stock now but could be wrong.

Clarks creek would be a war, not against people but against Pa fish and boat.

Salt run had 12 comments in opposition to making the exemption and they still allowed a stocking exemption with not ONE comment in favor.

 

[troutbert]

First things first...

You should contact the Area Fisheries Management for that area:

Area 7
195 Lebo Road
Carlisle, PA 17013-9362
Telephone: (717) 486-3157

And ask WHICH section(s) are under consideration for Class A designations as I have a hard time believing the entire creek is under consideration.

FWIW - The coordinates given are for the mouth of the stream which is standard OP for the PFBC when "naming" a stream.

Clarks Creek has 5 Sections. All but Section 1 are stocked by the PFBC. Sections 1 & 2 are above Dehart Reservoir, Sections 3 & 5 are "Stocked Trout Waters" while Section 4 is "Catch & Release Fly Fishing Only."

Section 4 is the Section that seems to be the the subject of most of the angst however I spoke to the Area 7 Fisheries Manager a year or so ago and he told me that the most recent survey of that section showed that it was hardly teeming with wild fish.

If you call, post your findings!

Agreed. It's almost certainly not Section 4, the C&R area. It's almost surely somewhere upstream of there.

I thought they usually put the section limits in those announcements. Without knowing the location, you really can't evaluate the proposal.

 

[C_kreek17]

I’ll see if I can get ahold of them this afternoon.

I know there might not be tons of wild trout in the c&r section but there are some there, along with other sections above it. I can’t imagine the dumping of thousands of mushy stocked brookies is helping the wild trout right in that section. I have seen holes with at least 30 trout sitting on top of each other.

And it’s sad to hear about salt run, especially if it is an indicator of how things go. Guess you can’t get your hopes up too much these days. Seems like the surrounding states are having good success with management, so hopefully pa starts to see this and make some changes (there I go getting my hopes up again)…

 

[Peyton]

It can hold nice fish, I don't have the photo, but my dad was fishing there with some friends over a decade ago, and his buddy caught a 15" brook trout. Fins and everything make it look native, but size says otherwise. I was lucky enough to catch a wild tiger out of there as well. stocked to wilds that day was pretty even and since then it's been more stockers than wilds. This was all above the lake, and the stream hasn't changed much for the four years I've fished it.

 

[C_kreek17]

I haven’t done any fishing above the lake. I assumed it’s all posted water company land/closed off for water supply. I’ve fished a majority of the lower sections though. Definitely some pretty wilds in there, just not many as of late.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I haven’t done any fishing above the lake. I assumed it’s all posted water company land/closed off for water supply. I’ve fished a majority of the lower sections though. Definitely some pretty wilds in there, just not many as of late.

No its not posted up there(above the chains where it dumps into lake) and there is a decent amount of wild native brook trout. Its just stocked really heavily too by clubs not sure about state. I catch all kinds of fugly shaped brown trout with no fins up there. Ashame. That would be another unique life history for brook trout with the deep lake right there if it wasn’t stocked

 

[Bamboozle]

I’ll see if I can get ahold of them this afternoon.

I know there might not be tons of wild trout in the c&r section but there are some there, along with other sections above it. I can’t imagine the dumping of thousands of mushy stocked brookies is helping the wild trout right in that section. I have seen holes with at least 30 trout sitting on top of each other...

A couple of things, it isn't often an Area Fisheries Manager/Biologist is sitting in the office but they WILL call you back so be patient.

Second, this one of my comments (#23) on this thread almost exactly one year ago:

"I just got off the phone with the Area 7 Fisheries Biologist in regards to the wild trout population in Section 4, AKA the FFO stretch. While it was sampled recently, they only sampled 10% of the stream section. ​

​

Keeping in mind the entire stream is on the Natural Reproduction List, they found both wild brook trout & wild brown trout at the two sample sites located more or less at opposite ends of the stretch. However the numbers surveyed are well below the minimums required for a Class A biomass at 1 kg/ha for BT and .56 kg/ha for ST.​

​

That is sort of in line with my catch rates of a few wild fish per outing."​

​

Also from that same thread, you might find this link interesting reading especially in light of the fact that the Coldwater Conservation Plan study was conducted long before the Hemlock Woolly Adelgid did its damage and created the mess that exists today.

In regards to access above DeHart, the stream above the backwaters is posted pretty far up so be careful and look for signs or check a Dauphin County Parcel Map and/or call Capital Region Water for their exact boundary.

FWIW - It's not a bad place to fish but not as nice as downstream.

 

[troutbert]

Can someone walk me through the process of wild trout stream designation and proposal? I was looking over the document in the link below and found something that piqued my interest. The ever divisive Clark Creek, on page 4 under Dauphin County, is being considered for class A status. I know it’s not proposed but does this mean there is some hope that it’ll one day get class A protections? Or am I reading this wrong?

https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/PennsylvaniaFishes/Trout/Documents/WildTroutStreamsBeingConsidered.pdf

The document says "considered", not "proposed."

I have some vague idea that "considered" comes before "proposed", but I'm not sure of the process. Can anyone help?

I looked through the list, and there are some very interesting streams on the considered for Class A list. It's hard to tell for sure without the section information, but I'm pretty sure some of these are currently stocked, and it would be a very good thing if stocking was ended on them.

 

[silverfox]

The document says "considered", not "proposed."

I have some vague idea that "considered" comes before "proposed", but I'm not sure of the process. Can anyone help?

I looked through the list, and there are some very interesting streams on the considered for Class A list. It's hard to tell for sure without the section information, but I'm pretty sure some of these are currently stocked, and it would be a very good thing if stocking was ended on them.

I noticed that too. Now the question is if these get proposed, how big of a "you know what" storm is that gonna generate?

I still can't understand why these listings need to be voted on. The streams either meet the criteria for Class A/Wild Trout, or they don't.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I noticed that too. Now the question is if these get proposed, how big of a "you know what" storm is that gonna generate?

I still can't understand why these listings need to be voted on. The streams either meet the criteria for Class A/Wild Trout, or they don't.

Yea fisheries science is a discipline if NASA operated the way PAFB did it would take a virtual pole of everyone following them on twitter about what kind of thrust modulator the general public wants in the next space shuttle.

 

[silverfox]

Yea fisheries science is a discipline if NASA operated the way PAFB did it would take a virtual pole of everyone following them on twitter about what kind of thrust modulator the general public wants in the next space shuttle.

We found a cure for cancer! Let's poll the public and see if we should release it. Oop. Looks like Philip Morris isn't keen on the idea, so we better keep it under wraps.

 

[Fish Sticks]

We found a cure for cancer! Let's poll the public and see if we should release it. Oop. Looks like Philip Morris isn't keen on the idea, so we better keep it under wraps.

Just substitute the word “cancer” for “hatchery introgression” and substitute “phillip morris” for “Laurel Hill trout farms”

 

[coyoterahn]

I haven’t done any fishing above the lake. I assumed it’s all posted water company land/closed off for water supply. I’ve fished a majority of the lower sections though. Definitely some pretty wilds in there, just not many as of late.

C kreek17,

Before this thread gets totally derailed by the usual suspects, let me give you some info if want to explore the upper end.

If my memory is correct, The Dehart dam is about 12 miles up from the rt225 intersection. Around 16 miles up from rt 225, you can find some parking (not big lots) and this area is state forest if I recall correctly and you’ll have access to the creek. It a different creek in the upper sections and you may get into some pretty brookies. Have fun. It’s a beautiful area up there.

 

[salmo]

First things first...

You should contact Area Fisheries Management for that area:

Area 7
195 Lebo Road
Carlisle, PA 17013-9362
Telephone: (717) 486-3157

Ask WHICH section(s) are under consideration for Class A designations as I have a hard time believing the entire creek is under consideration.

FWIW - The coordinates given are for the mouth of the stream which is standard OP for the PFBC when "naming" a stream.

Clarks Creek has 5 Sections. All but Section 1 are stocked by the PFBC. Sections 1 & 2 are above Dehart Reservoir, Sections 3 & 5 are "Stocked Trout Waters" while Section 4 is "Catch & Release Fly Fishing Only."

Section 4 is the Section that seems to be the subject of most of the angst however I spoke to the Area 7 Fisheries Manager a year or so ago and he told me that the most recent survey of that section showed that it was hardly teeming with wild fish.

If you call, post your findings!

Is Section 2 stocked?

 

[salmo]

C kreek17,

Before this thread gets totally derailed by the usual suspects, let me give you some info if want to explore the upper end.

If my memory is correct, The Dehart dam is about 12 miles up from the rt225 intersection. Around 16 miles up from rt 225, you can find some parking (not big lots) and this area is state forest if I recall correctly and you’ll have access to the creek. It a different creek in the upper sections and you may get into some pretty brookies. Have fun. It’s a beautiful area up there.

I usually have no trouble accessing and fishing above the reservoir. The fish are the usual size brookies, but fun.

 

[Fish Sticks]

C kreek17,

Before this thread gets totally derailed by the usual suspects, let me give you some info if want to explore the upper end.

If my memory is correct, The Dehart dam is about 12 miles up from the rt225 intersection. Around 16 miles up from rt 225, you can find some parking (not big lots) and this area is state forest if I recall correctly and you’ll have access to the creek. It a different creek in the upper sections and you may get into some pretty brookies. Have fun. It’s a beautiful area up there.

Ah yes derailed talking about the very process at PA fish and boat that the original poster inquired about. We in fact derailed from coyoterans comfort zone

 

[troutbert]

I noticed that too. Now the question is if these get proposed, how big of a "you know what" storm is that gonna generate?

How big? VERY big. There will be a lot of push back.

They are going to need our support.

 

[McSneek]

I always caught a few small wild browns in what little fast water there was on Clark’s in the FFO section. I had one day where I caught a bunch of decent sized ones that still sticks in my mind. Occasionally caught a native brookie too. I would assume any Class A designation would be above the reservoir. I never went up there.