Children’s Lake Dam and Allenberry construction updates?

[Letort]

Bummer about the run. Good place to get folks new to the sport into the fundamentals.

 

[jifigz]

It’s a shame what has become of Green Spring. I live 10 minutes away and used to fish it 15-20 time a year. It was a hidden gem that was never pressured compared to Big Spring and had one of the best sulfur hatches in the valley. The state tried fall stocking of fingerling browns about 10 years ago, but I believe that plan has been abandoned.

What has caused the degradation of Green Spring? Is it ruined by development and sedimentation, etc? I am not familiar with the stream and I've never fished it.

 

[Fish Sticks]

What has caused the degradation of Green Spring? Is it ruined by development and sedimentation, etc? I am not familiar with the stream and I've never fished it.

The owners of laurel hill trout farm have a hatchery on the headwaters, that can’t help. We saw what happened at big spring with a headwater hatchery . The stream has been degraded for sure and prob down cut through legacy sediment too. I wonder when the last time they surveyed and what they found?

 

[Wild_Trouter]

The owners of laurel hill trout farm have a hatchery on the headwaters, that can’t help. We saw what happened at big spring with a headwater hatchery . The stream has been degraded for sure and prob down cut through legacy sediment too. I wonder when the last time they surveyed and what they found?

This is a pretty good summary: http://www.limestoner.com/Green-Spring-Fly-Fishing-Guiding-and-Instruction.html

Just going to add here that in addition to a small population of wild browns (they are section specific), there were in some years, a small population of wild rainbows (section specific). Some years, large browns show up presumably from the Connie, and they seem to find things somewhat hospitable during the Fall/Spring before going back to wherever it is they originated from. Lots of problems w/poaching there...I've seen it, reported it to WCOs as some sections are a little more private so locals have at it and catch the stockers out pretty quick. I think that BS would subside w/cessation of stocking and move towards promotion of wild fishery that would earn the stream some more friends (the good kind). Green Spring could absolutely be a real jewel with lots of love. As it stands, it's just languishing in the shadow of Falling Spring, Big Spring, and Letort. Middle Spring in Shippensburg is not discussed much here, but it too, would greatly benefit from added help. For now, Green Spring should be made a priority. Think Lititz Run or Mossy Creek in VA when you're done.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Big spring and Green spring are so close to each other its crazy PFBC feels they need to stock both. I have heard Green spring gets hammered by the consumptive angler as well and it comes with stocked fish in my opinion.

 

[jsb95]

Man 4.3 million dollars, i know I will get flack for this but I’d personally wish they’d just saved most of that money and used this as an excuse to pull the dams and leave it as a Snakey stream winding through the lake bed as Krayfish mentioned he saw it. Throw some trees in the lake bed and create some wetlands for the breeches endangered eastern mud salamander instead of for rubber trout. Total pipe dream and not what anyone else wants to see i’m sure.

Do these salamanders still exist on the breeches? Never seen one, but could believe it.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Do these salamanders still exist on the breeches? Never seen one, but could believe it.

Not sure, i hope so. Apparently they like ground water sources like springs and fens, probably how children’s lake used to before colonialism.

 

[Old Town]

Most ,perhaps all the major work is completed. The equipment is gone but the lake still remains drained. I walked the full length of the run and did not see a fish. The siltation is beyond terrible. The first 100 or so yrds down stream from th spillway is a straight shute that can and will not ever hold a trout. There is debri piled up in and along the stream bank. The area looks deplorable. I fish the run for over 50 yrs. and liven in Boilingsprings for 45 years. The best words I can use is SAD, Very Sad.

 

[Letort]

Wonder if CVTU will take the run back under its wing and work on some improvements?

 

[Old Town]

I hope so. However, the last stream improvement work that was done was not a success IMO. The big problem is they have drained the lake for many years to control the vegetation. The lake is full, was full of scuds. The locals aways called them shrimp and was not correct but that is the term we still use. As years went on the main food source ( shrimp) was hard to find in the run. Draining the lake had to affect the eco system. Also 25 years or more ago water from the mainstream came down past the pool and into the lake. We used to have Sulphurs coming off on the lower end from the swimming pool to the flood gate in the lake. That also show that one food source was eliminated.
I worked at the Yellowbreeches fly shop for the previous three owners and the Run helped business year-round. With the exception of a few extremely cold snowy winter days there was always a fisherman fishing it.
My daughter learned how to fly fish utilizing this small stream. It was an easy place for beginners as well as senior with limited mobility to catch a few trout. I do not have the answerer, but I think removing the silt and debris would be the first step in the rehab. After that, steps could be done for habitat and increasing food supply.

 

[joebamboo]

Don't hold your breath, The Run is unfortunately a thing of the past. Many a great memory of the fishing and the "Characters" that frequented it regularly. Both will be sorely missed.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I don't necessarily disagree with you. If Green Spring Creek were located anywhere else, I'd wager that there would be more appetite to try and restore it. With being in the shadow of famous CV limestoners, Green Springs has gotten short shrift. I know that place quite well. Are there wild browns there? YES. Are there a lot of them present? NO. Could there be with considerable money, time, effort expended? LIKELY. I don't think the necessary ingredients are there to restore it to a brook trout fishery, but I do think you could successfully bring about a self-supporting wild brown and/or wild rainbow fishery. I'd much prefer that over maintaining status-quo. I can't help but think others here would want that too. I hate seeing limestone spring creek degradation seeing they are such precious resources.

You aren't wrong there

 

[Fish Sticks]

I think bullhead branch coming into green could probably sustain wild native brook trout but I am not sure. Spring creeks can real real real dirty and still support brookies think hammer creek in lebanon, fishing creek with nicholas meats and PFBC hatchery upstream, big spring and the phos and manure run off issues.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Lower green looks like it needs serious legacy sediment removal to reconnect increases in flows or over land sheet flow into the creek to gravel basal layer instead of perched on legacy sediment baking in the sun

 

[TimMurphy]

Lower green looks like it needs serious legacy sediment removal to reconnect increases in flows or over land sheet flow into the creek to gravel basal layer instead of perched on legacy sediment baking in the sun

Dear Fish Sticks,

What it really needs are 200,000 people to move out of the Cumberland Valley region and we know that ain't ever going to happen in the fastest growing region in the State.

The CV is Centre County all over again, it just lags in ruination because it doesn't host a major university and all that encompasses. The locals will compensate for that with 1,000,000 square foot mega-warehouses though. They have done a fantastic job of it in the 20 years I've lived around here, and absolutely nothing will change their progress.

It's kind of funny how our population in PA hasn't grown much in my lifetime, but the land utilized to house that population has probably doubled or even tripled over that same time span?

Apologies to the great lyricist John Prine, but I've seen this as a kid from Saint Clair my entire lifetime.

"Then the coal company came with the world's largest shovel
And they tortured the timber and stripped all the land
Well, they dug for their coal till the land was forsaken
Then they wrote it all down as the progress of man."

It's houses and warehouses now, but the results are mirror images.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[lycoflyfisher]

I think bullhead branch coming into green could probably sustain wild native brook trout but I am not sure. Spring creeks can real real real dirty and still support brookies think hammer creek in lebanon, fishing creek with nicholas meats and PFBC hatchery upstream, big spring and the phos and manure run off issues.

You keep referencing how dirty Fishing Creek in the narrows is... Would you like to share chemical or biological data that the rest of us haven't seen? Yes Nicholas Meats is in the headwaters and Sugar Valley is full of ag operations, but Fishing Creek does not have the degraded physical habitat that Hammer, Green spring and other intensly developed limestoners exhibit in scpa and some Lehigh Valley streams resulting from significant sediment, nutrient and stormwater pollution.

 

[Fish Sticks]

You keep referencing how dirty Fishing Creek in the narrows is... Would you like to share chemical or biological data that the rest of us haven't seen? Yes Nicholas Meats is in the headwaters and Sugar Valley is full of ag operations, but Fishing Creek does not have the degraded physical habitat that Hammer, Green spring and other intensly developed limestoners exhibit in scpa and some Lehigh Valley streams resulting from significant sediment, nutrient and stormwater pollution.

valley full of Ag including a slaughterhouse that sprays blood and animal products on to the land and the tylersville hatchery(anyone have a picture if the effluent), do you have data you have seen that you would like to share with us saying it doesn’t have higher nitrogen, phos or more coliform bacteria than your average PA brook trout stream???

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Fishing creek is not your average pa brook trout stream though. It has a much larger drainage basin and not to mention a significant influence from karst geology. It does have brook trout in relatively good numbers in certain sections. Compared to most Lehigh Valley, Lancaster co and cv limestoners Fishing Creek in the narrows has better water quality and instream habitat without a doubt. If you had macro ibi data and water quality data handy, I am sure that would confirm my above statement. That's not saying there are not challenges within the watershed, but a lot of work has been done within the agricultural community to reduce impacts on water quality and reduce sediment runoff from ag fields.

 

[JimKennedy]

Dear Fish Sticks,

What it really needs are 200,000 people to move out of the Cumberland Valley region and we know that ain't ever going to happen in the fastest growing region in the State.

The CV is Centre County all over again, it just lags in ruination because it doesn't host a major university and all that encompasses. The locals will compensate for that with 1,000,000 square foot mega-warehouses though. They have done a fantastic job of it in the 20 years I've lived around here, and absolutely nothing will change their progress.

It's kind of funny how our population in PA hasn't grown much in my lifetime, but the land utilized to house that population has probably doubled or even tripled over that same time span?

Apologies to the great lyricist John Prine, but I've seen this as a kid from Saint Clair my entire lifetime.

"Then the coal company came with the world's largest shovel
And they tortured the timber and stripped all the land
Well, they dug for their coal till the land was forsaken
Then they wrote it all down as the progress of man."

It's houses and warehouses now, but the results are mirror images.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

God bless John Prine! It's a shame he's no longer with us.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Fishing creek is not your average pa brook trout stream though. It has a much larger drainage basin and not to mention a significant influence from karst geology. It does have brook trout in relatively good numbers in certain sections. Compared to most Lehigh Valley, Lancaster co and cv limestoners Fishing Creek in the narrows has better water quality and instream habitat without a doubt. If you had macro ibi data and water quality data handy, I am sure that would confirm my above statement. That's not saying there are not challenges within the watershed, but a lot of work has been done within the agricultural community to reduce impacts on water quality and reduce sediment runoff from ag fields.

Do you know if SRBC granted Nicholas meats their water grab? I saw meeting was in may and couldn’t find anything right after the meeting.