Chesapeake Log Perch soon Federally Endangered? PSU’s Dr. Stauffer highlights threat of invasive predators

[JeffP]

Do you know what it showed? Iv'e walked the creek (more the upper part) pretty often. I have seen little evidence of trout. 10 years ago, I would see a lot. Where is the dam? Does it totally block movement? I guess it wasn't removed.

 

[Mike]

One-of-a-kind: Penn State research team studies rare Susquehanna fish

Pa. (WTAJ) — A Penn State University research team is sharing new findings about a rare darter fish that they believe only lives in the Susquehanna River. It’s called the Chesapeake log…

www.wtaj.com

Stauffer warns against adding more invasive predators


Of note PA fish and boat stocks some of the last few streams on earth containing this rare species with invasive hatchery trout as well as manages for wild invasive brown trout populations in or very near them.

If Feds list the species PFBC might be forced to clean up their act. We will see.

Oh please, the species isn’t even on the USFWS list of proposed threatened and endangered species.

 

[silverfox]

Oh please, the species isn’t even on the USFWS list of proposed threatened and endangered species.

They're making a determination on listing this year.

 

[Mike]

They're making a determination on listing this year.

You may want to re-check that. It’s not on the USFWS 90 day review list of petitions received for threatened or endangered and it’s not on the candidate list either. Where are you finding the C Logperch mentioned on the USFWS T&E process web site? If it’s not on these lists and having closely observed the process when American eels were petitioned, I wouldn’t count my chickens before they are hatched.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Oh please, the species isn’t even on the USFWS list of proposed threatened and endangered species.

Those of us here in 2023 are seeing unprecedented loss of biodiversity and native species. If you cannot see the problem with stocking a top 30 invasive species on planet earth when 70% of the past centuries freshwater aquatic extinctions are at-least in part due to invasive species…..i can’t help you.

Just because its not on the threatened or endangered list doesn’t mean its not headed for it rapidly. Maybe you should read this

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/brv.12974

 

[silverfox]

You may want to re-check that. It’s not on the USFWS 90 day review list of petitions received for threatened or endangered and it’s not on the candidate list either. Where are you finding the C Logperch mentioned on the USFWS T&E process web site? If it’s not on these lists and having closely observed the process when American eels were petitioned, I wouldn’t count my chickens before they are hatched.

The chief of ecological services in the NE told me (almost a year ago). Here's the list: https://www.fws.gov/sites/default/files/documents/national-domestic-listing-workplan_0.pdf

 

[sixfootfenwick]

This threads content makes it apparent that "political realities" still rule the day even when pensions are being collected.

I don't think anyone wants any species to have to be listed, but I would also think that if realiable sources are considering doing so, then there must be a reason.

I wonder, will the mechanisms in ones brain start working and putting it together after a certain amount of biodiversity loss, or will apathy rule and the thought of, "well it's too late now, why do anything"?

Stocking trout is bad. All science points to it having no redeeming value on a watersheds biodiversity.


The PFBC knows this, but "political realities" exist which is just another fancy name for a self inflicted gun shot wound to the foot.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I bet the PFBC does lead an effort funded by the UFWS to prevent the fish from being added to the list 😂

Weird when I click the action plan nothing comes up.😮shocking.

I just wanted to compare it tit for tat to see if it is getting worked on as little or even less than the wild brook trout action plan 🤣

 

[sixfootfenwick]

You may want to re-check that. It’s not on the USFWS 90 day review list of petitions received for threatened or endangered and it’s not on the candidate list either. Where are you finding the C Logperch mentioned on the USFWS T&E process web site? If it’s not on these lists and having closely observed the process when American eels were petitioned, I wouldn’t count my chickens before they are hatched.

Checked and verified.

Chesapeake Logperch (Percina bimaculata) | U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service

www.fws.gov

 

[Fish Sticks]

I bet the PFBC does lead an effort funded by the UFWS to prevent the fish from being added to the list 😂

Weird when I click the action plan nothing comes up.😮shocking.

I just wanted to compare it tit for tat to see if it is getting worked on as little or even less than the wild brook trout action plan 🤣View attachment 1641231343

Lol looks like their doing about as much for them as they are for wild native brook trout, hellbenders, tipcanoe darter, eastern sand darter, Iowa darter, and all the other native fish species

 

[Mike]

The chief of ecological services in the NE told me (almost a year ago). Here's the list: https://www.fws.gov/sites/default/files/documents/national-domestic-listing-workplan_0.pdf

Thanks for that; at least, it’s on a work plan list.

View attachment 1641231344
Checked and verified.

https://www.fws.gov/species/chesapeake-logperch-percina-bimaculata[/URL

Check Silverfox’s link in #26 above. 2023 in your research has now become fiscal year 2025 for USFWS Region 5 and it’s priority 4 on a scale of 1-5…. It’s right up there with wood turtles😊

As for impacts of BT on Chesapeake Logperch, consider that the logperch not only are sympatric with wild BT in three streams, including two fair to good BT populations, but co-exist with all manner of predatory exotics in the river and have done so for over a century in some cases. A brief list of these very effective predators with fair to large populations in Conowingo Pool where Chesapeake Logperch are resident includes largemouth bass, smallmouth bass, crappie species, channel catfish, and walleye. I hope readers understand how effective LMB and WE are as predators…very effective! Additionally, I doubt most readers here have any concept of how numerous c cats are in the Conowingo Pool. Given their (logperch) sympatry with all of these species, I’m not fretting about BT in a few creeks, especially when the largest creek population is sympatric with the largest BT population in the streams where the logperch are found.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Thanks for that; at least, it’s on a work plan list.

Check Silverfox’s link in #26 above. 2023 in your research has now become fiscal year 2025 for USFWS Region 5 and it’s priority 4 on a scale of 1-5…. It’s right up there with wood turtles😊

As for impacts of BT on Chesapeake Logperch, consider that the logperch not only are sympatric with wild BT in three streams, including two fair to good BT populations, but co-exist with all manner of predatory exotics in the river and have done so for over a century in some cases. A brief list of these very effective predators with fair to large populations in Conowingo Pool where Chesapeake Logperch are resident includes largemouth bass, smallmouth bass, crappie species, channel catfish, and walleye. I hope readers understand how effective LMB and WE are as predators…very effective! Additionally, I doubt most readers here have any concept of how numerous c cats are in the Conowingo Pool. Given their (logperch) sympatry with all of these species, I’m not fretting about BT in a few creeks, especially when the largest creek population is sympatric with the largest BT population in the streams where the logperch are found.

Again sympatry means nothing about impact of one species effect on another. There can be positive effects benefitting both species unique to that stream. We find invasive brown trout with native brook trout they are slowly or not so slowly displacing, sympatry means nothing in this case also because obviously we have research showing there is harm.

“Predatory exotic,”we know LMB are invasive species I am so tired of dancing around the term invasive, if your describing the definition just say it, no planes will fall out of the sky I promise.

With this group of invasive and or non-native species your acting like everything is fine using the word “co exist”, their down to only 9 streams on planet earth! THATS “coexisting” stable, nothing to worry ablut!?!?

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Thanks for that; at least, it’s on a work plan list.

Check Silverfox’s link in #26 above. 2023 in your research has now become fiscal year 2025 for USFWS Region 5 and it’s priority 4 on a scale of 1-5…. It’s right up there with wood turtles😊

Imagine smiling that a species is at a possible threat level 4 by down playing it to another struggling species.

2023, 2025 fiscal blah blah blah, the reporting shows they are evaluating adding the Logpearch to federal protection in year 2023. If it's 2025 who cares? It will give you a few more years to downplay the severity and more opportunity to say sympatric with brown trout.

One literally has to put their hands over there eyes, say lalalala loudly with ear plugs in to be able to ignore the massive amount of studies, in the Appalachian region alone, on the effects of brown trout on non game fish assemblages.


The one little creek in this discussion gets stocked with Giant Brown trout by locals yearly in the very lower section the Logperch is in.
🤷

 

[silverfox]

Unfortunately, I suspect nobody will look too deeply into whether there is any impact from salmonids or not. We’ll probably hear a lot about how bad snakeheads and blue catfish are though.

The pollution is the easy target. Habitat too. We want to undo the damage we’ve caused right up to the point it might mean dealing with popular sport fish. Same goes for LMB and SMB. I doubt they’ll be included in any reports either.

It’s the same issue for brook trout or any other species negatively impacted by nonnative sport fish. In PA at least. It’s not natural resource management. It’s a popularity contest.

 

[Fish Sticks]

It will be interesting because I talked to Dr. Joseph Love who sampled the black water region, saw the white perch decline, and published on it and asked him about snakeheads and the large 4 famous limestoners in PA. He said based on where they came from in china and how they behave theres no reasons snakeheads could not occupy those areas and come into conflict with brown trout.

So there could very well be a situation where those who let angling preferences for invasive brown trout cloud their ideas about conservation or those fanatical stocking apologists who are totally uncompromising on reform, start to see some real impacts to populations of wild invasive brown trout, SMB, or LMB.

Then it will be *uck the last 9 log perch streams on earth, we gotta save the invasive species thats invaded every continent outside its native range except Antarctica.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

It will be interesting because I talked to Dr. Joseph Love who sampled the black water region, saw the white perch decline, and published on it and asked him about snakeheads and the large 4 famous limestoners in PA. He said based on where they came from in china and how they behave theres no reasons snakeheads could not occupy those areas and come into conflict with brown trout.

So there could very well be a situation where those who let angling preferences for invasive brown trout cloud their ideas about conservation or those fanatical stocking apologists who are totally uncompromising on reform, start to see some real impacts to populations of wild invasive brown trout, SMB, or LMB.

Then it will be *uck the last 9 log perch streams on earth, we gotta save the invasive species thats invaded every continent outside its native range except Antarctica.

And the OIFC was formed.
(Original invasive fish Coalition)

 

[Mike]

“Imagine smiling that a species is at a possible threat level 4 by down playing it to another struggling species.”

It’s not a threat level; it’s a priority level 4 on a scale of 1-5. There’s a difference. I assume 1’s are top priority.

By the way, around 2015 or so I independently proposed a Chesapeake Logperch catch and transfer effort to other streams with similar habitats as an initial range restoration or expansion effort. If there was already another effort underway at PSU or by another agency, I was not aware of it. A species need not be on a federall list to implement range restoration or expansion efforts.

 

[Mike]

Again sympatry means nothing about impact of one species effect on another. There can be positive effects benefitting both species unique to that stream. We find invasive brown trout with native brook trout they are slowly or not so slowly displacing, sympatry means nothing in this case also because obviously we have research showing there is harm.

“Predatory exotic,”we know LMB are invasive species I am so tired of dancing around the term invasive, if your describing the definition just say it, no planes will fall out of the sky I promise.

With this group of invasive and or non-native species your acting like everything is fine using the word “co exist”, their down to only 9 streams on planet earth! THATS “coexisting” stable, nothing to worry ablut!?!?

We’re speaking of a completely different trophic relationship here….a predator and a forage fish, not competing predators.

 

[Fish Sticks]

We’re speaking of a completely different trophic relationship here….a predator and a forage fish, not competing predators.

We have no research on how they interact at all, we don’t know. Do brown trout fry compete for habitat with them then become predators? We don’t know how they interact at all because its a huge glaring research gap. The only thing we have is the research showing negative interactions between them and lower abundance of other fish in the darter family when invasive brown trout are present.

 

[Mike]

We have no research on how they interact at all, we don’t know. Do brown trout fry compete for habitat with them then become predators? We don’t know how they interact at all because its a huge glaring research gap. The only thing we have is the research showing negative interactions between them and lower abundance of other fish in the darter family when invasive brown trout are present.

Yet the most common SE Pa darter, the tessellated darter, populations do fine with or without sympatric BT. Along with blacknose dace, longnose dace, rosyside dace, and the occasional creek chub, they are the most common species found with wild BT in the SE and usually one or more among this mix of these species is abundant in fish population surveys in wild BT streams. BT are not cleaning out the forage base.

By the way, who is “we?” Anglers?
Don’t you mean “they?”