Bushkill goes completely dry again!

[afishinado]

C'MON MAN!! :-o :-o :-o

https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/news/2020/10/bushkill-creek-goes-dry-again-in-tatamy-as-backup-during-maintenance-at-hercules-quarry-falls-short.html?fbclid=IwAR3Pb5rPZ82qF5s7Mx53UNtZXK2x2NfMdmzkK_9NQDqSmHvwrG2kCmMv6zc

https://www.facebook.com/groups/216964605302564/

 

[drakeking412]

What a shame. I get a couple of things from the article, one there is some really interesting geology going on here especially with the sinkholes and dye test. From a geologic standpoint I would say that the while the quarry might only get 10% returned sinkhole water I'd wager that quarry operations opened up more sinkholes than thought but that's just speculation. Two the lining of the stream is stealing from Peter to pay Paul and just like they pointed out the problem is likely to just move. Turning the stream into a concrete drain might hold water above ground but at what price? I guess the bridge is more important when we get down to brass tacks. And finally three is how deeply ingrained corporations are in our ecosystem and there's us in the third row seating yelling pull over I'm about to vomit. This and the Delaware drop are two decent examples of pre spawn browns eating a punch to the face that I believe could have been averted by just a little more planning and a little more cooperation from all parties.

Apologies for the rant but anytime I hear mine or quarry and trout stream in the same paragraph I get all rustled.

 

[timmyt2]

This has happened over and over again up there, they need to just shut the quarry down clearly

 

[Baron]

I live here and we need the Quarry. Historically this stream does this and I believe long before the quarry. I thought I had heard that over the years the quarry was assisting the stream flow in being more steady and able to support wild trout.

Can someone research this.

I have a suspicion that in our judgment against the quarry we've put the cart before the horse.

Why not re-route the streamed to bypass the quarry? I'm pretty sure that the answer may be that the stream naturally would run sub-surface in dry times and that the Quarry has been propping up this fishery for a long time.
I had read some years ago that this stream was the most dammed streambed/mile in the state. But all those industries are gone now.

Not particularly strong either way its just that I think we're not seeing the whole picture. Plus we all use cement.

 

[Baron]

I live here and we need the Quarry. Historically this stream does this and I believe long before the quarry was there. I thought I had heard that over the years the quarry was assisting the stream flow in being more steady and able to support consistent year round wild trout.

Can someone research this.

I have a suspicion that in our judgment against the quarry we've put the cart before the horse.

Why not re-route the streamed to bypass the quarry? I'm pretty sure that the answer may be that the stream naturally would run sub-surface in dry times and that the Quarry has been propping up this fishery for a long time.
I had read some years ago that this stream was the most dammed streambed/mile in the state. But all those industries are gone now.

Not particularly strong either way its just that I think we're not seeing the whole picture. Plus we all use cement.

Now a good reason to close it down may be if it isn't owed by Americans anymore. I had heard that most of our local mines in PA are owned by foreign companies and if true I would find that unacceptable.

 

[silverfox]

drakeking412 wrote:
And finally three is how deeply ingrained corporations are in our ecosystem and there's us in the third row seating yelling pull over I'm about to vomit.

I'm stealing this.

 

[Vaughn]

Since those are my pictures, I guess I should chime in. If you wish to look it up on a map, the bridge in the picture is the Main St bridge in Tatamy, pa.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/40°44'32.6%22N+75°14'59.1%22W/@40.742382,-75.2502932,19z/

Note that this is below the confluence with the Little Bushkill creek, so we are losing the entire flow of that tributary as well when this happens. Roughly a mile and a half of creek dry up during these events. Below a certain point additional springs add flow to the creek and the creek continues to flow (at a reduced amount) through these events. Forks of the Delaware chapter of Trout Unlimited has been dealing with these issues for a lot longer than I have been involved with the chapter, and we will continue fighting on behalf of the watershed.


To respond to some specific comments in this thread :

drakeking412 wrote:
From a geologic standpoint I would say that the while the quarry might only get 10% returned sinkhole water I'd wager that quarry operations opened up more sinkholes than thought but that's just speculation

Yes, there is quite a bit of sinkhole activity in the area. What makes it complex is that sinkholes occur naturally in limestone geology. Sinkhole activity can become increased within the cone of depression of a deep quarry, as appears to be the case with this quarry. Connecting correlation and causation is not always a simple matter when the quarry operators can point to a history of sinkholes predating the quarry. In this regard, the die test result is significant.

drakeking412 wrote:
the lining of the stream is stealing from Peter to pay Paul and just like they pointed out the problem is likely to just move.

I question whether building that concrete structure on top of known sink holes will even hold up? I'll confess I'm not an engineer or a geologist, though.

Baron wrote:
Historically this stream does this and I believe long before the quarry

I'd be interested in reading up on this if you could point me to some sources.

Baron wrote:
I thought I had heard that over the years the quarry was assisting the stream flow in being more steady and able to support wild trout.

The lower Bushkill is fed by springs. It supports wild trout in spite of quarry operations.

Baron wrote:
Can someone research this.

Please do and share what you learn.

Baron wrote:
Why not re-route the streamed to bypass the quarry?

The stream does not run through the quarry. Where would you propose routing it? Keep in mind you would also need to reroute the Little Bushkill.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

I cant disagree with the notion of needing the quarry enough.
If they cant do environmentally sound business in the area as they promised to do, then someone else should have a chance.

We all use cement yes but there are a total of 9 companies in PA that make cement.
Issue the permits to someone who can make it safely and properly.
Quit rewarding bad behavior.

Yes the company is foreign owned to my understanding. Though i think that matters the least

 

[Baron]

Have you been keeping up on your Chinese, Italian and Russian language studies or don't you watch the news, lol?

 

[RLeep2]

I'm clear on the other side of the state and don't really have a dog in this matter. Although, we have somewhat similar issues with the effects of extensive commercial sand and gravel ops on the aquifer up here in the NW.

All the same, it has always been my view that the freedom to do business in Pennsylvania is a privilege, not a right. This privilege can be extended to or taken away from a business contingent on their behavior. When it comes to the integrity of our streams in situations like this, our sole option is not limited to to sucking it up and simply being happy we have the quarry or whatever. We have a right, even a duty to expect the businesses to which we extend the privilege of our agreement to allow them to operate to do so ethically and responsibly. If they cannot or will not, we have the right and the duty to revoke their privilege. Put another way, the quarry needs to get with it or get gone.

Just a viewpoint..

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

I have not had tv in well over a decade but being that i work for an italian company and often have italians at my work i can safely say, i cant understand them for crap :lol:

I fine with foreign countries owning companies here that provide good jobs AS LONG AS the do it the right way for our citizens.

 

[CRB]

I toes not mater foreign and domestic companies brake environmental laws. It is up to the PA DEP to do the leg work and up hold the laws. In Erie there is a company called Erie Coke that has been polluting for years and finally are being held accountable and the state is stuttering that plant down.
Unfortunately politics have a pull to ease the DEP away from enforcing the laws.

 

[larkmark]

"I have not had tv in well over a decade but being that i work for an italian company and often have italians at my work i can safely say, i cant understand them for crap"


Episodes of the Sopranos are available on Youtube.

 

[Zak]

Vaughn - could you tell us where the dry stream bed starts and stops when this happens? I'm assuming that it starts shortly below the R33 bridge and continues down to the Springs at Penn Pump? Does it go dry all the way below Newlins Mill Road?

 

[Vaughn]

Zak wrote:
Vaughn - could you tell us where the dry stream bed starts and stops when this happens? I'm assuming that it starts shortly below the R33 bridge and continues down to the Springs at Penn Pump? Does it go dry all the way below Newlins Mill Road?

Basically, rt. 33 bridge to to the Bushkill St bridge (the newly reopened one). That isn't to say there isn't exposed stream bed below that, but at least there is water flowing in the channels.

 

[afishinado]

Informative article about the Bushkill situation >

https://www.inquirer.com/news/trout-fishing-bushkill-creek-sinkholes-lehigh-cement-plant-20201025.html?fbclid=IwAR2utoVMLiX8vc9JjD5ChMBMwMhl4bUyV4_5X8lbSaDPer6HlEUN9VkGAmI

 

[Vaughn]

Thanks to Jason Nark for taking the time to come up and talk with us.

 

[Jaybird]

Really are we blaming it on the drought , how about blaming the engineer who rented back up pumps that couldn't produce.. That's kinda laughable. No pumps , no water .

 

[Wild_Trouter]

@Vaughn...Do you have any email addresses where I can forward some letters? I grew up fishing there and the LL. Back in the day, I remember all of the red iron oxide pigment emitted/released from Pfizer then Harcros before I moved out of the Lehigh Valley. That section of the Bushkill was flat out ugly including the red water right there at the bend along the wall. I talked to an employee one time and they told me Pfizer stocked that section of the C&R with a few hundred rainbows each year to try and look like a good steward. If you have some email contacts, I'd be more than happy to tender some thoughtful correspondence. What is transpiring there is absolutely sickening and will continue to reoccur until someone is forced to do something.

 

[Baron]

Yes, Pfizer is gone now. It will not return. They are piece-meal dis-assembling the plant as we speak. No more red cars and house roofs.
I'm glad that they had largely cleaned up their act but for those of you that don't know the following is just a small list of companies that are either gone or are neutered in their benefit to us by their foreign owners:
Pfizer
The cement quarry in question
Bethlehem Steel
most of Mack truck
all of Ingersol Rand
Fuller Company
Dixie cup
Mack Printing
Reading Railroad
Many, many many subsidiaries supporting these companies.

It's not good to relish their passing. They were earth-shatteringly great jobs. Allot of what we call the drug induced homeless folks today were called Factory Workers back in the day. They owned a row home, were home for dinner with their families and bought boats and fishing gear like the rest of us. The hopelessness of their condition has in some ways contributed to their harmful behavior. All societies has folks that are capable of tech jobs and good habits both socially and educationally and every society has folks whose potential is more related to manufacturing. This latter class is no longer supported or wanted by our society; and so the behavior they show us in return.
it would be better to save all these companies and help them overcome their issues. We use the same amount of steel now as we always have. Same with trucks, paper, paint, machinery and more. The difference is we have to buy it from foreigners or from other states who are polluting their communities and countries. We've traded our country's workers, technology and sovereignty for clean rivers when, in a little time, we could have figured out how to have it all.
No it is not a good time to be glad these companies are gone and I hope we can learn to resurrect some of the great attributes and benefits we once had as a country, only some of which mentioned above.