Brown Trout Eradication.

[Maurice]

My feelings mirror SteveGs first paragraph exactly. In york county the brooktrout are virtually exterpated except for a few streams. Browns are just a better fit. Sorry char fans. Your day has come and gone. Immigration is what this county is all about. Thanks Obama!

 

[The_Sasquatch]

I question that, and I would use the Southern Apps as an example. The introduction of browns and rainbows DID push the brookies out of their native range, and the southern Appalachian TU chapters are working hard at restoring that native range. They are seeing success with it as well. That was not an issue of changing environment. That was an issue of invasive fish pushing out a native resident.

 

[The_Sasquatch]

krayfish2 wrote:

Brookie folk are a different crowd. I fished for browns in Penns above Cherry Run. I caught a brook trout, accidentaly of course. I simply said "how about that?" and returned the fish. Going by the 'gemmie playbook', I should have whipped it into the laurel as I determined it was invasive and a threat to the fish I was targeting. Bash away.

Why is that? Are browns magically native in that section of Penn's? The brown is still the invasive species in that scenario haha!

But I like them so I want to keep them!

 

[sarce]

I don't think anyone was advocating trying to remove browns from places brookies can no longer live due to warm or polluted water.

 

[dryflyguy]

I'd be against poisoning any stream - period. For all of the reasons already mentioned.

I recall reading - in one of Charlie Mecks books I believe - about the fish commission poisoning little sandy creek in venango county years ago. With large wild browns up to 20" long floating down the creek dead. Seems like a shame to me
And apparently, the desired goal of restoring brookies - didn't work either

 

[krayfish2]

Andy,
Umm, I just reviewed my post. Nowhere did I see that I used 'native brown trout' in th post. The browns might be wild but they aren't native......not my first rodeo.

Now, you are telling me that brookies would flourish from Poe Paddy to Weikert? Conditions would definitely say no. So the browns residing there (the same ones you fish for) are not displacing brooks, right? I suppose the next argument is the browns are heading up tribs and overtaking the char. As I've always said, sorry that your fish is weak. The brown trout aren't going anywhere.

I just see brookies limited to isolated / remote mountain areas. It is what it is. You always have big spring for spotted sardines. LOL

 

[RLeep2]

>>That was not an issue of changing environment. That was an issue of invasive fish pushing out a native resident. >>

Well kinda, sorta. But not really...

I mean, once introduced, the RT did outcompete the remaining brook trout in most of the watersheds. But there was also a hellacious amount of logging that was (IMO) the determinative part of the overall story.

 

[Cornholio]

I suppose I should have been a little more specific with my original statement. When I said "Brown Trout Eradication". I was referring to small freestone mountain streams that have been completely over taken by Brown Trout or have mixed Brook/Brown Trout populations. Doing something like this in say Penns Or the LJR would be pretty stupid.

As far as Browns pushing Brookies out of a stream. There is plenty of evidence to support this. In fact it is what got me interested in this subject in the first place. There are a hand full of direct tribs to the Allegheny close to home that historically held Brook Trout as recent as the 30's. No logging, no mining, no nothing except the introduction of Brown Trout and now the brookies are gone.

I have also read plenty of studies that show that browns will out compete brookies IF the conditions are right. Such as PH, Water Temp and other environmental factors.

Picking on Brook Trout for being "weak" isn't very fair when you consider they are the ones that survived the challenges of evolving in this area. Regardless of how much some of you like Brown Trout, it is important to remember that they are an invasive species that has impacted the native landscape just like Blight, Ash Borer, Zebra Mussels and 100's of other species that I could name. I'm not saying that we all can't enjoy catching brown trout, but I think we owe it to the brookie to at least make an attempt to restore some of it's native range.

 

[midnightangler]

Trying to eradicate a fish once it has been established is a fool's errand. The biggest reason not to pursue a brown trout eradication program is that there is no way that it would work. You'd be spending a pile of money to kill wild fish for no reason.

My uncle used to work for a fish commission out west (decades ago). They would poison entire lakes with rotenone to try to get rid of brown trout. He said it didn't work. It's really hard to kill every fish.

I do believe in protecting native fish, but once species have been introduced and established the game is over. It's best to accept this rather than spending time, money and effort on a lost cause. Those resources are better allocated to protect the native fish populations that remain.

Agree that fish (any trout, not just browns) should not be stocked over native populations. Keep in mind that rainbows have displaced brook trout over the vast majority of their southern range. Wild brown trout and brook trout seem to coexist better than brook trout and rainbow trout. Not sure why. Stocking brook trout over natives can dilute the native gene pool. Stocking over natives is a terrible policy.

 

[The_Sasquatch]

RLeep2 wrote:
>>That was not an issue of changing environment. That was an issue of invasive fish pushing out a native resident. >>

Well kinda, sorta. But not really...

I mean, once introduced, the RT did outcompete the remaining brook trout in most of the watersheds. But there was also a hellacious amount of logging that was (IMO) the determinative part of the overall story.

That is true. It was a combination of factors. But now that conservation efforts over the past several decades have made that water suitable for native species again, we cannot deny that they struggle to regain their original range due to the presence of non-natives.

 

[wildtrout2]

What's not to love? lol I wish every stream had one of these in it!

 

[tomitrout]

They already tried this on the Letort, though inadvertently, back in the '80s....it didn't work, still plenty of browns in there.

 

[Swattie87]

We always talk about how Browns turn up in places we didn’t think they could survive. Brookies do it too. I know of plenty orange rock, AMD streams that seem lifeless…until you dap a Royal Wulff onto the surface of a pool. I wouldn’t be surprised if nearly all of the Brookie’s diet in these streams were terrestrials…or other Brookies. I know of a few streams where the only fish species (not just salmonoid) present in surveys were Brook Trout. Brookies are tough fish too, just in different ways than Browns.

They are much more susceptible to being called “gems” than Browns in my experience though.

 

[FarmerDave]

SteveG wrote:
The part that too many people overlook on this issue, brook trout are very sensitive to environmental contaminants. If a stream could harbor brook trout, it'd have them in it. Its a fallacy that browns "push" the brook trout out. Due to environmental issues, many streams just aren't suitable for brook trout anymore.

I know of quite a few tribs (which have no barrier preventing fish from moving into) that I catch almost brook trout exclusively, and they feed streams in which I catch primarily browns. Generally the larger streams suffer more from siltation, hydrocarbons, etc. Even if browns were never introduced, many of the waterways which had brook trout, would not have them today.

Steve,

Truth is brook trout can live anywhere that brown trout live. But they don't because there are Brown trout there.

As far as temperature goes, there is only about one or two degrees difference between what I brook trout can tolerate versus browns.

What can't be said is that brown trout can live anywhere a brook trout can because brook trout can handle much lower PH.

As PH approaches neutral, Browns out compete the brook trout. So yea, they can "push" the brook trout out.

 

[krayfish2]

I think someone read / misunderstood my previous post. I didn't suggest removing browns from waters like Penns, Little J, Spring, etc. I'm sure that all of the above were once home range for the ST. The char crowd is for restoring populations to where they once were. Ok, but are you talking before the logging of the early 1900's or back to the paleozoic era? There are plenty of healthy populations out there. Water quality and habitat destruction are much bigger threats to brook trout than a brown trout stampede is.

What I was simply saying was that I caught a brookie in a stream primarily inhabited by browns. I felt no compulsion to whip it into the bushes or rage that it may have displaced a brown trout. I'm very happy to fish for wild trout (no matter the spot pattern). I also enjoy the challenge that the brown trout presents.

 

[FarmerDave]

sarce wrote:
I don't think anyone was advocating trying to remove browns from places brookies can no longer live due to warm or polluted water.

Where is this coming from. All trout are sensitive to pollution, mot just brook trout. The reason brook trout are usually associated with gin clear water is because gin clear streams are usually less fertile and often have lower PH which does not favor Browns. The only thing that brook trout are more susceptible to than brown trout is they are SLIGHTLY less tolerant to higher temperature. But trout can move to colder water if it starts getting too warm so even that is negligible.

Brook trout may require less silt for reproduction, but again, they migrate and seek out clean gravel to spawn.

On the other hand, brown trout is more susceptible to low PH.

I'm not in favor of any massive brown trout eradication program, but those who think Brook Trout can't survive anywhere a brown trout can are mistaken. Well, they could if the brown trout weren't there.;-)

and that includes Penns.

 

[jifigz]

I in no way would support something like that. We must realize that things change. It is the way nature works, regardless of human intervention was the driving force behind it or not. Be thankful we have many wild trout streams and let it go. I feel it would be counter-productive and do much more harm than good to attempt something like this.....it would basically just be a set back.

 

[jifigz]

These questions are pretty silly. It is dang near impossible to eradicate fish from a system, especially a specific variety. Good luck. I bet you could try to poison or kill every fish in a system and "start over" and there I'd a good chance that a few lucky fish may make it. It just isn't feasible. And I appreciate having three species of trout readily available in PA streams. Always makes for a good surprise.

 

[LetortAngler]

That roided out gemmie - too funny.

 

[McSneek]

The best thing about this thread are the wonderful pictures Kray posted, especially the mutant brookie. Perhaps that one will end up in one of these new trophy sections the PAF&BC has created.

As for the original topic and questions presented - absurd.