Brook? Yes. Brown? Absolutely. Rainbow? Not so much.

[Cznymph]

I have a few ideas why Bows do not usually spawn in Pa. but they would only be my opinions. However I fish a decent amount of time in Va, North Carolina and Tennessee and many of there streams are full of wild rainbows. The stream conditions and climate is very similar to ours in Pa. so I do not agree with some of the post. Perhaps someone can explain why these states have many streams with small wild rainbows along with small wild brook trout.

The rainbows in the smokies are of a spring spawning strain.

 

[dano]

A true pure strain of rainbows will spawn when water temps get around 40. However the PFBC “steelhead” strain is far from pure.

They select wild fish to spawn throughout the winter, and use a drug called ovaprim to facilitate the ripening of the brood. The last I knew there was an emphasis on earlier running fish. This is why we see a much heavier steelhead run in PA versus NY early in the year.

Most of the natural reproduction issue with PA Lake Erie Tribs has to do with geology and lack of suitable spawning habitat.

I'm from NY. Here we stock the chambers cr strain. Winter run.
So, my reply was more to the question of the effects of steelhead spawning in the Winter.
They don't. They spawn in the Spring.

 

[Cznymph]

I'm from NY. Here we stock the chambers cr strain. Winter run.
So, my reply was more to the question of the effects of steelhead spawning in the Winter.
They don't. They spawn in the Spring.

Right. Even though they may run in the fall or winter, they won’t actually spawn until spring when the water gets to that 40 degree mark.

 

[moon1284]

The cattaraugus creek watershed (above scoby dam) in WNY has a lot of wild rainbows but a big one is 12 inches.

There are so many it's kind of annoying to catch them. The lower catt has (or at least used to when i fished it a lot more) a decent number of wild steelhead.

The gennessee river watershed is geographically very close to the cattaraugus watershed (gennessee flows into Ontario, catt into erie), and I don't think I've ever caught a wild rainbow in the genny watershed. Both watersheds have wild brown trout and some wild brook trout, have similar water Temps, and similar habitat.

So I guess this has nothing to do with rainbow trout in PA, but I can't figure out why rainbows took hold in one watershed and not in the other.

 

[dano]

The cattaraugus creek watershed (above scoby dam) in WNY has a lot of wild rainbows but a big one is 12 inches.

Upper Chautauqua Creek has a population of wild rainbows and at one time, wild brown trout from when those were stocked many years ago. We're guessing the rainbows are the descendants of the early NY domestic (mutt) steelhead that breached impassible barriers during floods. I have a friend who sometimes comes down from Coudersport to fish it. He caught a nice 24" rainbow the last time he visited in 2020.
Even on upper 20-Mile above the state line we would occasionally find fingerling brown and rainbow trout while searching for Spring Steelhead. This was in the late 70"s early 80's.

 

[FarmerDave]

I am not posting this as an argument, but rather an exception to the rule.

Not naming stream names, but many of you know where I am talking about. I believe that a couple of wild rainbow pops that I am familiar with in NWPA are Spring spawners and they have been there for a long time so they likely haven't been manipulated much. They have spread a little bit as streams improved, but the reason they haven't become widespread is because they are not as tolerant of low pH which is all too common in NWPA. There is also some anecdotal evidence in that the further upstream I would go, the less rainbows and more brook trout I would catch. I suspect the headwaters there are more acidic.

About half of that can be considered opinion, so feel free to tell me I am wrong. It is possible.😉

 

[Swattie87]

I am not posting this as an argument, but rather an exception to the rule.

Not naming stream names, but many of you know where I am talking about. I believe that a couple of wild rainbow pops that I am familiar with in NWPA are Spring spawners and they have been there for a long time so they likely haven't been manipulated much. They have spread a little bit as streams improved, but the reason they haven't become widespread is because they are not as tolerant of low pH which is all too common in NWPA. There is also some anecdotal evidence in that the further upstream I would go, the less rainbows and more brook trout I would catch. I suspect the headwaters there are more acidic.

About half of that can be considered opinion, so feel free to tell me I am wrong. It is possible.😉

That. And, I think part of the issue keeping Bows (in the wild populations that are self sustaining) from expanding their territory in PA is that in many (all?) areas where Bows are established in PA, Browns are too.

Bows are pretty effective at displacing Brook Trout, but they seem less capable of displacing Brown Trout. So, in the case of NW PA, in areas where acidity would be tolerable by Rainbows, there’s probably already Browns there.

 

[moon1284]

Upper Chautauqua Creek has a population of wild rainbows and at one time, wild brown trout from when those were stocked many years ago. We're guessing the rainbows are the descendants of the early NY domestic (mutt) steelhead that breached impassible barriers during floods. I have a friend who sometimes comes down from Coudersport to fish it. He caught a nice 24" rainbow the last time he visited in 2020.
Even on upper 20-Mile above the state line we would occasionally find fingerling brown and rainbow trout while searching for Spring Steelhead. This was in the late 70"s early 80's.

I forgot about upper Chautauqua. I've never fished it but I heard it had wild rainbows. I've fished all over the state but there is a lot of good water in the southern part of the state between say Jamestown and east to 81 I've admittedly never fished.

 

[Mike]

I am not posting this as an argument, but rather an exception to the rule.

Not naming stream names, but many of you know where I am talking about. I believe that a couple of wild rainbow pops that I am familiar with in NWPA are Spring spawners and they have been there for a long time so they likely haven't been manipulated much. They have spread a little bit as streams improved, but the reason they haven't become widespread is because they are not as tolerant of low pH which is all too common in NWPA. There is also some anecdotal evidence in that the further upstream I would go, the less rainbows and more brook trout I would catch. I suspect the headwaters there are more acidic.

About half of that can be considered opinion, so feel free to tell me I am wrong. It is possible.😉

Yes, they are spring spawners and my source indicated that that’s what the fed hatcheries were stocking many decades ago in Pa. Acidic conditions, as you say, would also prevent range expansion.

 

[Sylvaneous]

Here in PA, we have lots of wild trout opportunities. Miles and miles of headwaters that are the home of our native brook trout. There's even more miles of water supporting wild brown trout as well as the sections that are a mix of brook and brown.

I can only think of a handful of places in PA where you can catch wild rainbow trout. What are the factors that limit our wild rainbow opportunities? I know there's little pockets of wild bows here and there but nothing stands out as a high quality wild bow fishery.

What am I missing?

I live not far from a watershed that has a lot of wild rainbow trout throughout it. It flows into a large , clean river that I have caught wild browns out of when the water is cool enough. Why those rainbows don't populate other creeks in the region is a mystery to me. And Ive only caught big browns in the river, never rainbows. I HAVE caught large rainbows in the lowest parts of Oil Creek while bass fishing at a time when the water was or should have been way too warm for trout. I was wet wading for smallies after all. And always on crayfish flies. But I don't know. I wish there were more. We have lots of clean waters that get too warm. Rainbows would do better, longer there. Oil Creek being a prime example. Penns. The branches of the Juniata, Pine creek, How the streams around the Kinzua Tailwater don't have wild rainbows, I don't know. It's a bit of a mystery why they don't expand their range. I wish they would. All these waters have fine smallmouth populations. They'd be even better if they held rainbows in the margins.

 

[Sylvaneous]

I am not posting this as an argument, but rather an exception to the rule.

Not naming stream names, but many of you know where I am talking about. I believe that a couple of wild rainbow pops that I am familiar with in NWPA are Spring spawners and they have been there for a long time so they likely haven't been manipulated much. They have spread a little bit as streams improved, but the reason they haven't become widespread is because they are not as tolerant of low pH which is all too common in NWPA. There is also some anecdotal evidence in that the further upstream I would go, the less rainbows and more brook trout I would catch. I suspect the headwaters there are more acidic.

About half of that can be considered opinion, so feel free to tell me I am wrong. It is possible.😉

There are less acidic streams that hold wild fish on the north side of the river nearby that watershed. I haven't fished them in a long time, but when I did, I never caught a wild rainbow. The geology doesn't change much at all in that (this. I live in NWPA) part of the world. And that watershed has it's share of gas well 'mineral water' sources. It has gotten better after much well plugging, but still, its not pure or untouched by ruinous extractive industry. It makes sense that one watershed would have more or fewer wild 'bows, but almost none doesn't make sense.

 

[blitzinstripes]

I've had folks call me a liar, but I've caught a FEW wild rainbows on the upper Yellow Breeches. Gorgeous fish, par marks, giant perfect fins. Between 3 and 5 inches in length. But it's been a few years. Caught a few on a class A wild brown stream further north that has not been stocked with rainbows in 30 years. Again, only a handful and they were between 4 and 8 inches. I know of a couple of streams in the Cumberland valley that hold some wild bows. I won't spot burn them. Let's just say that the Cumberland valley has a ton of little springs and not all of them are well known or even acknowledged in print.

 

[blitzinstripes]

The cattaraugus creek watershed (above scoby dam) in WNY has a lot of wild rainbows but a big one is 12 inches.

There are so many it's kind of annoying to catch them. The lower catt has (or at least used to when i fished it a lot more) a decent number of wild steelhead.

The gennessee river watershed is geographically very close to the cattaraugus watershed (gennessee flows into Ontario, catt into erie), and I don't think I've ever caught a wild rainbow in the genny watershed. Both watersheds have wild brown trout and some wild brook trout, have similar water Temps, and similar habitat.

So I guess this has nothing to do with rainbow trout in PA, but I can't figure out why rainbows took hold in one watershed and not in the other.

Could the small "rainbows" you're seeing in the upper Catt, simply be steelhead smolts?

 

[blitzinstripes]

That. And, I think part of the issue keeping Bows (in the wild populations that are self sustaining) from expanding their territory in PA is that in many (all?) areas where Bows are established in PA, Browns are too.

Bows are pretty effective at displacing Brook Trout, but they seem less capable of displacing Brown Trout. So, in the case of NW PA, in areas where acidity would be tolerable by Rainbows, there’s probably already Browns there.

I agree. Brown trout definitely seem to be by nature more aggressive and the most capable/ prolific spawners. We've all seen what they can do when they move into brook trout streams. It's a fair assumption that they could be a limiting factor on rainbow reproduction.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I think there is a lot of good information in this thread but I still stand by what I was trying to to elude to.

Oncorhynchus mykiss or Rainbow trout can remain in freshwater their entire lives, or they can migrate to the ocean and then return to freshwater to spawn. These ocean-bound migrating fish are known as steelhead trout. The only way to confirm a fish is a steelhead trout is by look at its scales or by analyzing the chemical composition of its otoliths, or ear bones. The offspring of two steelhead parents may become a purely freshwater form of rainbow trout, while the offspring of two resident freshwater rainbow trout might evolve into an anadromous steelhead trout. Unlike their salmon cousins, steelhead trout are iteroparous, meaning they can spawn multiple times during their life. Steelhead return to the estuary or ocean between spawns, but return to their natal stream, or the stream where they were born, each time they spawn.

My observation and suspicion is that Rainbow trout that remain in freshwater may become
potamodromous, anadromous or be resident fish, if they become potamodromous they also probably return to their Natal stream to spawn just like their anadromous versions.

 

[FarmerDave]

There are less acidic streams that hold wild fish on the north side of the river nearby that watershed. I haven't fished them in a long time, but when I did, I never caught a wild rainbow. The geology doesn't change much at all in that (this. I live in NWPA) part of the world. And that watershed has it's share of gas well 'mineral water' sources. It has gotten better after much well plugging, but still, its not pure or untouched by ruinous extractive industry. It makes sense that one watershed would have more or fewer wild 'bows, but almost none doesn't make sense.

Jason, I am positive we are talking about thee she strems,

Although AMD is a major issue in NWPA, it isn't the only issue. To make a long story short the geology has very little buffering, and rain is naturally somewhat acidic even without human influence making it much worse. the better streams may have some limestone deposits or are in areas that had been glaciated and the glacial till contains some buffering.

True that the streams have been improving in the area for the past half century or so as a result of remediation efforts, and the rain becoming less acidic, but the vast majority of the streams are still on the acidic side.

Rainbow trout are the most sensitive to low pH. In fact, they do not do well with pH much below 7. Cannot reproduce in pH below about 6.

I could talk about this all day, but I need a new computer and this one works only in tablet mode. I hate typing on a touch screen.

 

[CRB]

What FarmerDave said and when the dam came up rainbows were the fish and they were from a federal hatchery the three streams are where they found good habitat

 

[moon1284]

Could the small "rainbows" you're seeing in the upper Catt, simply be steelhead smolts?

Scoby dam is am impassible barrier but is set to be removed or at least have a fish passage I think (may have started im really not sure). But the upper catt watershed has had wild rainbows for a long time. I'm fairly certain these fish are not steelhead smolts.

 

[blitzinstripes]

So....this is ironic. After posting in this thread yesterday, I fished one of my favorite streams today with my son. This is a basic put and take stream with no special regs or classification. It's heavily stocked each spring. However we discovered a thriving wild brown population a few years ago, and this time of year we do very well on the wild fish and an occasional holdover. Well, be still my beating heart!....Today we caught a half dozen beautiful little wild 'bows mixed in with about 20 wild browns . I was astonished! First time on this particular stream. I just sent an email and pics to the area fisheries biologist, as I really feel we need to consider adding special regs here to protect the wild population. In a couple of months this stream will again be heavily stocked and now some of these wild trout are reaching legal size and the stringer crowd is going to start keeping some of them. This might be an uphill battle as it's a popular put and take stream. Changing the regs and classification would be sure to **** off a few people but I believe it's in the best interest of the resource.

 

[jifigz]

So....this is ironic. After posting in this thread yesterday, I fished one of my favorite streams today with my son. This is a basic put and take stream with no special regs or classification. It's heavily stocked each spring. However we discovered a thriving wild brown population a few years ago, and this time of year we do very well on the wild fish and an occasional holdover. Well, be still my beating heart!....Today we caught a half dozen beautiful little wild 'bows mixed in with about 20 wild browns . I was astonished! First time on this particular stream. I just sent an email and pics to the area fisheries biologist, as I really feel we need to consider adding special regs here to protect the wild population. In a couple of months this stream will again be heavily stocked and now some of these wild trout are reaching legal size and the stringer crowd is going to start keeping some of them. This might be an uphill battle as it's a popular put and take stream. Changing the regs and classification would be sure to **** off a few people but I believe it's in the best interest of the resource.

Those small populations of rainbows that blossom for a couple of years and then magically disappear are pretty common throughout the state.

Also, if a thriving brownie population emerged WHILE being a heavily stocked put and take stream and it's still a very popular destination for stocked trout anglers, I'd say the chances of it being removed from stocking are about nil.