Brook? Yes. Brown? Absolutely. Rainbow? Not so much.

[krayfish2]

Here in PA, we have lots of wild trout opportunities. Miles and miles of headwaters that are the home of our native brook trout. There's even more miles of water supporting wild brown trout as well as the sections that are a mix of brook and brown.

I can only think of a handful of places in PA where you can catch wild rainbow trout. What are the factors that limit our wild rainbow opportunities? I know there's little pockets of wild bows here and there but nothing stands out as a high quality wild bow fishery.

What am I missing?

 

[dudemanspecial]

I think I recall discussion here that Rainbows spawn in the spring, and the water here warms up too much during their spawn time for it to be really successful.

 

[tomgamber]

Double edged sword. They stock rainbows bred to be unlikely breeders, themselves. So they don't take over wild brook and brown populations. Maybe the rainbows would be better. Stand by while heads explode.

 

[Cznymph]

I was always of the understanding that because of manipulation in spawning times of PFBC rainbows, they now spawn in the fall. As a result the rainbow eggs don’t survive the winter as water temps drop too low. This is why wild rainbows are typically seen in spring creeks that run warmer.

 

[Cznymph]

Double edged sword. They stock rainbows bred to be unlikely breeders, themselves. So they don't take over wild brook and brown populations. Maybe the rainbows would be better. Stand by while heads explode.

Many of the rainbows that the state stocks now are sterile females purchased as eggs from a commercial facility on the west coast.

 

[Cznymph]

Not all

That could be why I used the word “many” in my post.

 

[troutbert]

Wild rainbow trout are common in states north and south of PA. And they are found in some streams in PA, in different parts of PA, and in both limestone and freestone streams.

So, the reasons there are limited numbers of wild rainbow trout is not because of climate or stream conditions.

There is only one reason: The genetics of the rainbow trout stocked by the Fish Commission are not conducive to establishing wild trout populations. The few wild rainbow populations that exist in PA came from stockings by other parties using different rainbow strains.

Which is a good thing, because wild rainbow trout can strongly out-compete native brook trout. The PFBC is aware of this, and they deliberately do not stock wild strain rainbow trout for this reason. They've been aware of this for a long time. A PFBC biologist explained this to me back around 1990.

 

[krayfish2]

Since I'd seen them in freestone, limestone influenced and spring creeks, I couldn't find a common thread for type of water holding them.

I know the "fish" the PFBC stocks are not of the best genetics. Over the years, I remember catching bows in full spawning colors from April all the way through fall. Suppose the manipulation for hatchery use has many mixed up versions of rainbow and flipped their spawning time. I was just starting to wonder if they were native to the west coast for a reason and ill suited for the East.... but that didn't make sense 😂.

I think it was back in the early 90's when FFM ran an article speculating on the rainbows causing the declining numbers for browns on the upper Delaware. I guess I can see how it might be possible because those bows reproduce like cockroachs.

 

[Mike]

As a result the rainbow eggs don’t survive the winter as water temps drop too low. This is why wild rainbows are typically seen in spring creeks that run warmer.

We have a winner! Give the man a cigar! Critical low temp is around 40 F.

 

[krayfish2]

We have a winner! Give the man a cigar! Critical low temp is around 40 F.

So.... Manufactured rainbow trout that spawn at the wrong time of year is the reason? That's like having a chicken that lays square eggs. If we had a more pure strain of rainbow, you're saying that they would be more successful with the spring spawn?

 

[Cznymph]

So.... Manufactured rainbow trout that spawn at the wrong time of year is the reason? That's like having a chicken that lays square eggs. If we had a more pure strain of rainbow, you're saying that they would be more successful with the spring spawn?

The PFBC strains of rainbows are either sterile females, or have been manipulated to spawn in the fall, so that in roughly 1 1/2 years they are big enough to stock and on the same schedule as all the other fish. Most cultured strains of rainbow trout are all fall spawners.

Fish can be made to spawn early by adjusting the photoperiod, the same thing many people do with their chickens to get them to lay all winter, or by selective breeding. By taking the earliest spawning fish every year, the spawning window can be moved.

I suspect that if a spring spawning strain were to be introduced in many PA streams, you’d see more natural reproduction of rainbows.

 

[greywolf]

We have a winner! Give the man a cigar! Critical low temp is around 40 F.

Mike how do the water temperatures below 40 F affect steelhead who lay eggs during the winter? Being rainbows I would guess they would be negatively affected also?

 

[JimKennedy]

So.... Manufactured rainbow trout that spawn at the wrong time of year is the reason? That's like having a chicken that lays square eggs. If we had a more pure strain of rainbow, you're saying that they would be more successful with the spring spawn?

The allusion to chickens is integral to the whole discussion of rainbow trout. Everything about the hatchery strains runs parallel to the selective breeding efforts that led to a strain of fowl that goes from day-old chick to cordon bleu in about eight weeks.

Back in the 1870s, the fishery managers back east were calling them “California brook trout.” Now various strains bred for anything from sporting purposes to restaurant efficiencies have names reminiscent of tomato cultivars for your garden.

It’s true for brown trout and Atlantic salmon, but rainbow trout are unusually flexible from an aquaculture perspective.

You want a yellow trout? Selective breeding of rainbows has generated this twice in two efforts: the West Virginia centennial golden and the lightning trout of the Pacific Northwest.

Want a trout that grows fast and has a crazy good feed to body mass ratio? Those all female strains mention earlier will give you a trout that’s a fat foot long in two years, and it only takes about 2 pounds of food to get a pound of trout (on the hoof, as you might say).

Up at the research station in centre county they used to have a covered trough where the daily light exposure was controlled to trick the rainbow’s’ biological clocks into believing that two years had passed in 12 months to get two spawning seasons in one year.

There’s a wild strain in big spring and a few in other watersheds, but modern stocked rainbows are no more likely to take hold in a creek than Purdue and Tyson chickens are to start nesting in the woods of stony valley.

There’s a lot of weird history behind our sport.

 

[krayfish2]

In PA, I was aware of and once chased after the bows in falling springs. Believe it was a FFM article talking about the wild Shasta river strain in FS. I'm not a fishologist but the BS bows are quite different in appearance. If I guessed, maybe a Kamloops variant. The only other ones I can think of (broadhead and Delaware main) likely have their own strain which I believe is a McCloud river rainbow.

So, you're saying that a "heritage strain" (probably not the right term) or a bloodline that isn't too far removed from the wild are going to be more successful in creating the next generation, correct?

It's hard to believe that the fish haven't spread or moved into connecting waterways as much as they move around. FS and BS both drain into the upper Connie. Surprised that fish aren't using the big water fall through June as a travel / feeding opportunity. Guess they don't have the same behavior as the transient browns that seem to wonder from system to system.

I'd like to see the genetics of Lackawanna browns in places like spring or penns where food is more abundant. Maybe they would be the same as what's already there or maybe they would be the genetic freaks they appear to be. Nature versus nurture. Are those fish big because they only have hard food to feed on or is it in the genetics? I have lots of ideas and some of them are pretty absurd. 😁

 

[sixfootfenwick]

It's hard to believe that the fish haven't spread or moved into connecting waterways as much as they move around. FS and BS both drain into the upper Connie. Surprised that fish aren't using the big water fall through June as a travel / feeding opportunity. Guess they don't have the same behavior as the transient browns that seem to wonder from system to system.

I wouldn't say that is exactly true.
In the summer you can find some large rainbows at the mouths of feeder streams in the upper Connie. Some are even up into those tributaries.

It's my assessment that many return to BS or FS where they came from, rather than inhabit new water.

 

[krayfish2]

I wouldn't say that is exactly true.
In the summer you can find some large rainbows at the mouths of feeder streams in the upper Connie. Some are even up into those tributaries.

It's my assessment that many return to BS or FS where they came from, rather than inhabit new water.

But if they were browns or brooks, they be all over the place and taking new territory. Bows are strange critters

 

[Swattie87]

But if they were browns or brooks, they be all over the place and taking new territory. Bows are strange critters

Maybe Bows are nihilists.

 

[dano]

Mike how do the water temperatures below 40 F affect steelhead who lay eggs during the winter? Being rainbows I would guess they would be negatively affected also?

From my understanding, Winter run steelhead will start to spawn when the water temperature rises above 40F degrees. The Great Lakes Winter strains normally spawn from mid March to Mid April. This year might see spawning in Feb because of the recent mild temperatures.

 

[Cznymph]

From my understanding, Winter run steelhead will start to spawn when the water temperature rises above 40F degrees. The Great Lakes Winter strains normally spawn from mid March to Mid April. This year might see spawning in Feb because of the recent mild temperatures.

A true pure strain of rainbows will spawn when water temps get around 40. However the PFBC “steelhead” strain is far from pure.

They select wild fish to spawn throughout the winter, and use a drug called ovaprim to facilitate the ripening of the brood. The last I knew there was an emphasis on earlier running fish. This is why we see a much heavier steelhead run in PA versus NY early in the year.

Most of the natural reproduction issue with PA Lake Erie Tribs has to do with geology and lack of suitable spawning habitat.

 

[Old Town]

I have a few ideas why Bows do not usually spawn in Pa. but they would only be my opinions. However I fish a decent amount of time in Va, North Carolina and Tennessee and many of there streams are full of wild rainbows. The stream conditions and climate is very similar to ours in Pa. so I do not agree with some of the post. Perhaps someone can explain why these states have many streams with small wild rainbows along with small wild brook trout.